Maggie Finale thread #5!



Well, here we are, entering an epic 5th(!) installment to the comments for the last Maggie.

Here is another outtake for you. This is the scene with Maggie and Carmichael that I actually wrote out and then tanked because it never felt quite right. More like a suspense novel or something, rather than a hotwife romance. In the end, I like it much better being told secondhand to one of our heroes by Maggie's other suitor. Very hurtful.

So here is the scene, relatively unfinished and unedited, but cleaned up so you can read it:


There was a slight twitch to his face, the easy demeanor fading slightly, his brow lowering and making him look mildly puzzled. He leaned back in his chair, said, “Why is that?”

“Well, you may be aware that Jay and I entered into a friendship of sorts.”

Professor Carmichael nodded, still expressionless.

“We entered into a friendship of sorts, and he was not pleased with how it ended.”

At first he seemed unaffected, weighing her words and studying her face. And after he’d measured their weight, he shrugged, cocked his head and lowered his eyes and though he mumbled he clearly spoke: “You’re an engaged woman.”

Maggie ran her tongue across her upper lip and raised her own eyebrows. She said, “Jay knew that as well.”

“Perhaps, Margaret, you told him many things that he found to be untrue. Though, you, yourself, may not have thought them untrue.”

“Did you talk to him?”

“No, I didn’t. I don’t talk to my son about the girls he sleeps with.” Now he leaned forward and attempted a look of menace, winding his big black fingers together on his impressive desk.

“Professor Carmichael, I made no promises to Jay. None whatsoever. In fact, our involvement was so ephemeral his brutal reaction was shocking.”

“Brutal?”

“Jay came to my dorm room yesterday.”

“Oh,” Professor Carmichael said, and he began to stroke his thumb across the other hand.

“He came to my room when I was alone. I wasn’t prepared for him and he wasn’t welcome. I wasn’t dressed appropriately and I asked him to leave but he did not leave. He made horrible accusations and called me terrible things.”

Professor Carmichael nodded. Putting up a defensive barrier again. He rearranged pens on his desk.

“On top of that, he made threatening movements, intimidated me greatly. You know how strong he is. He tore my shirt off. Stripped me naked and ripped my clothing in front of me.”

Professor Carmichael didn’t look in her eyes but he inhaled silently and held it.

Maggie said, “He also took something of great value to me, a drawing, and he tore it up. Destroyed it.”

“I see,” he said and he settled back into his chair his brow low in his mouth working around. Maggie stared at him and waited for a response.

He said, “That’s it?”

“It is. Were you expecting more?”

“Not at all. It doesn’t sound like his reaction was unwarranted. Affairs of the heart can be difficult to deal with. I’m sure you felt slighted before, I’m sure you felt hurt.”

She said nothing. He leaned forward again. “A young woman can make a young man do crazy things. It’s not only young female students that could be victimized. How much?”

She said, “How much what?”

Professor Carmichael moved his pen again back to where it had started. He said, “For the drawing, Maggie.”

“How much for my drawing?”

“This amounts to property damage. How much did you want?”

“Money?” She choked back a laugh.

“So what is it that you do want?”

“I want him to leave me alone.”

“I think he will. I think he said what he needed to say.”

“He did more than say things.”

“Did he hurt you?”

“No, he didn’t.”

“There was no crime committed—I mean beyond some minor property damage.”

She resisted rolling her eyes and kept her gaze on Professor Carmichael. “The property he destroyed had sentimental value.”

“Margaret, I fail to see where this can go. Jay has said his peace. It’s over.”

From her pocket she withdrew her iPhone. She watched Professor Carmichael as he waited to see what she would do. She flicked her thumb over the screen and tilted the speaker toward him. There were muffled bumps, sliding sounds across fabric, muffled voices. Then it began. His son’s voice clearly saying, “What is that?” Then the play played out. Him taunting her, examining her drawing. Her own voice now pleading with him not to destroy it. The sounds of it being destroyed, the sound of her crying.

When she listened, her eyes welled up reliving that horrible fear. In that moment she didn’t know if she would ever get out of that dorm room. It was all in Jay’s hands. She was powerless. Now she wasn’t. They both listened and she drilled her gaze into Jay’s father. Watched as he listened to her son say horrible, awful, disgusting things to her. Listened as he berated her, uttered bizarre misogynistic taunts. Winced as he said something that was racially bigoted. More raving and Maggie sniffed, wishing she had a Kleenex to wipe at her eyes. Then a loud crack and it made her jump even though she knew it was coming. His eyes darted to hers and she said, “That’s when he punched a hole in my wall.”

He nodded solemnly, clasped his hands together.

She closed her phone and put it back in her pocket. “This is my one and only time I talk with you about this outside of a Tribunal. And believe me, it won’t stop there. I will involve the State Police. Arrange with your son to make an admission of his guilt in writing, an apology to me,  and an agreement that he is not to step foot on the Farmingham Campus as long as I am a student here.”






Comments

  1. Dam there goes my bj under the desk victory.

    Also popped the cherry on a new page. Wahoo!

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  3. Ha! 5th thread!

    Suck it Kenny Wright ...

    ... JK, I love you

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  4. Yeah, that’s rough...and I agree its better we learn it through Cole to Max. It hits harder that way, part of Max’s reckoning of the events he set in motion. And what he failed to protect Maggie from.

    I know everyone played their part in Jay...you can blame Cole for forcing Maggie to break it off with him, Maggie for being into him in the first place. Max for pushing Maggie to Jay without thought of the consequences. Jay for...being a gigantic douchebag.

    But I think the revelation by Cole is an especially tough blow to Max, so I think it’s the most powerful coming that way.

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    1. I actually liked Jay at first and found it weird how his behavior suddenly changed. Didn't make a lot of sense.

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  5. It still stings, honestly. This is around the time things started to get too unsettling for me..

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    1. Whoops, here's the link! Another song from Max's perspective

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLfHO377F3w

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  7. Totally OT, kt; this is what you've done to me. Quarry is ringing all the bells, 1.5 episodes left. Let's seed what we've got:

    1962 Lincoln Continental (black) with suicide doors - check, 2 different girls I dated in HS had fathers with that car

    1970 Chrysler 300 2-dr. hardtop - check, girl I dated senior year in college

    Called for "wanting to go off and kill women and children more than you wanted to be with me" - close, called "one of those Special Ops assholes, a fucking monster" by one of my college classmates at a reunion (20th, I believe). That was from a guy who had just regaled our table with the tale of how he got out of the draft; he wanted to know how the rest of the guys at the table had gotten out of the service. Unlike the usual storyline on this one, the girl sitting next to me asked if I had really gone over there and then started getting hot.

    Allman Brothers playing in a dive - check, went on my motorcycle with my then switch-hitting girlfriend.

    There's more but it's really personal.

    Oh, and I wanted to thank kt and the rest of you bitter clingers for an enlightening and entertaining few weeks. I have spent the past 12 months recuperating from profound skeletal surgery and I have enjoyed every moment of the reading and your commentary.

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    1. Is it me or is the cuckold theme becoming more and more mainstream..
      "The Punisher" has some in its storyline too. What the hell thought he was supposed to just kill bad guys not worm his way into the partners wifes panties. IK hes not going there but....ready made family if the partner gsts ganked.

      Excellent song KT.
      Loved it.

      I'm still wonder what the point was for maggie to wear jays t shirt. Was she really looking for a romantic interlude? I suspect it was more mundane and in the world of childish, but perhaps the whole Jay thing was a high school cheerleader crushing on the superstar jock. Which then leads me to believe maggie was never suited to a long term relationahip with Max.
      Max popped into maggies life too early. A year or so later if they click its for life. Well hell its for life this way too I suppose.

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    3. Recover quickly @Donkatsu!

      Yeah John, Maggie going after Jay was scary from the very beginning. It's why Max concludes that he has to let her explore her fantasies in order to keep her and yeah, what a decision that was. 99.9% of guys would nope out of that relationship, take a break, confront her, literally anything else. But not our Max!

      Definitely didn't see "that" coming in The Punisher. I liked how it was handled though, very human and Frank Castles handled it like a true bro. What a guy that Frank Castles. Holy fuck, the stuff I smiled and cheered for while watching that show..

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    4. What, is this that Netflix show? They have The Punisher getting cheated on? Does he watch through a sniper scope?

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    5. I guess I can thank KT because now whenever I see Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas on TV I’m gonna yell out: “That’s Jay’s dad...he’s an asshole.”

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    6. @KT Morrison You think Frank Castles is the beta in this scenario??

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    7. No it's really only a significant story piece in one episode. Don't wanna spoil anything :)

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    8. @Donkatsu I'm so glad I set you on that show, because it was really one of great and high quality. Awesome writing that diverged from the novels into deep character, and boy, great acting performances too. I didn't live through that time but I appreciate for sure how it can stab at you. I think part of why Joanie cheating on Mac got me so good was because it was in the past. I'm not stupid but I think I was just realizing how universal and global this awful feeling is when you don't know, or can't be assured of the fidelity of someone you love. It's brutal, and I hate that feeling, hate that I have to conjure it in myself too sometimes. Cuckqueaning or whatever you might want to call it seemed to be more prevalent in the past; I've read a lot of pulp romance from the fifties where that seems to be a trope that women readers got off on. Not anymore. Now it seems like women's romances are hyper-monogamous, and we see the creeping of cuckolding into mainstream fiction for men. WTF is happening there, right? Also I read a thread on ohw.org where someone commented that his wife had sex with all his best friends on their pool table while he watched. Some other poster asked for pictures of said wife and he responded saying Oh, she passed away from cancer in 1987. Actually only two of the guys she slept with that day are still around too. God, there was something frightening and astoundingly beautiful in that and I had to take a knee. Like, literally step away from my computer while I comprehended the passage of time. You can thank that poster for the theme I settled on for Cherry Blossoms, by the way. It had that profound an effect on me. So yeah, women have always been unfaithful and men have always worried, but seeing it in live color in Quarry seemed to punch me in the stomach, take the fetish out of it and reduce it to a ubiquitous painful truth.

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    9. Spoil it for me @WA, I'm never going to get around to watching it. Does the Punisher get cucked? Like, I'm picturing his family before they were killed, him later discovering she had a lover or something ...

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    10. @JL I literally went to giphy and just typed Clarence Thomas into the search, ha ha ...

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    11. Frank castle is the hero and biggest bad ass in town..hes also the most honerable man in the world who happens to be a highly trained marine and has decided that death before trial is the bestest way to consuct business.
      He meets up with a dude who faked his death to ptotect his family. Hes a techno guru. Has his hole wired for videos..has a video feed outage sends frank who has aleeady established friendship with techno dudes wife and kids so techno dude gets to play voyeur to what happens with Frank and sharon .

      Franks a stand up guy but the angst is obvious.

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    12. Home not hole bot that almost changed the whole show to a porno.

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    13. Oh, no that's not it. The show starts with him working as a construction worker deeply scarred by the murder of his wife and daughter. The person/conglomerate responsible is still out there and the show is him solving the mystery of what happened and going after his revenge. He's barely even human, that's kinda what's awesome about him. He's the punisher 24/7, always bitter and angry.

      Along the way he meets this guy in a similar situation as him, except he's not a badass ex-marine, instead he's a badass computer hacker who calls himself Micro. He still has his family and it's in danger from the same source that murdered Castle's family. Castle doesn't trust him at first and threatens Micro's family without really threatening it, as collateral for his help. So he's showing up at their house, pretending to be someone else, putting on a show.

      Micro is a badass computer hacker, so he has cameras in his family's house that he can access remotely. His wife thinks her husband is dead and gradually starts to make advances on Castles and Micro can see the whole thing as it develops over several weeks (and most of the season). She kisses him at one point but Castles backs away and makes an excuse to leave.

      The same night, Micro gets super hammered in his little bunker where he's hiding out. He wants everyone to think he's dead to keep his family safe so he can't intervene with any of it. And Frank Castles isn't someone you talk to casually. He's seriously fucked up. Castles shows up and drinks with him. They both get drunk, sing some songs and bond over the loves of their lives. Ultimately Castles reveals that he would never do something like that.

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    14. There's one moment after all this where Micro's family is in serious danger and Micro sends Castles to help without hesitation.

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    15. Hope you are on the rebound from your surgery donk!

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    16. @kt, hellava ride that final episode. Thanks for the tip. Joni was able to cheat without remorse because she had depersonalized Mac and turned him into a caricature. That was what hurt {me} so much about the "killing women and children" line. She finally admits with the parents that she failed him.

      Maggie didn't even have to depersonalize Max to start in with Jay. She was just experimenting and looking for something hot and fun, figuring that she was missing out on something with Max. Consequences did not occur to her.

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    17. KT - Thank you for sharing that lovely story about why Cherry Blossoms came to be.

      Do you have a singular inspiration for Maggie? The story, not the woman ... I'll take that too though, lol!

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    18. @Donkatsu Ow, shit. That's a good point about depersonalizing him. It's bringing up all that artificial-hurt I felt last January. I didn't even consider that part. Yeah, she did—and it helped put a greater distance between them that allowed her to do the things she did. And to make matters worse (boy, do I have to stop thinking about that show) the voice and language she used were the poison probably fed to her by her newspaper boyfriend, looking to get into some soldier's wife's pants.

      Get better soon—your surgery sounds intensive and I hate to think of rehab that takes a year, but glad you're around to keep us entertained while you heal. The fact you suggested but didn't outright say Carol did paintings holding her paintbrush intimately had me in stitches.

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    19. @kt, thanks for the best wishes. There is a closely related set of skills (!) involving those muscles. Think cigarettes, ping pong balls, coke bottles with straws. You live in SE Asia a few years and you see things.

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  8. Am I a bad person for still not really caring about whether or not Maggie stays happy? She was only supposed to explore and have experiences, not fall in love..Fuck..makes me feel a type of way..

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    1. I spent a year of my life living in Maggie's head and honestly, her true happy ending would be with Max. Having Max's babies and being a Milton would have made her endlessly happy (fucking tearing up here again). Art or not, she would have been a complete person. Max wouldn't care if she wanted to stay at home and raise kids and paint or go be a lawyer. He would have had her back no matter what. Kind of neat that Keely is a lawyer, huh? Proves his point. And he was never into the Becker money: case in point, when Max and Maggie and Cole arrive at her family home, Cole is surprised that it's that nice, that the Becker's are that wealthy. His best buddy Max never really talked about it, because it wasn't important to him. All of Cole's buddies for sure heard how wealthy his girlfriend's family is. My ending is happy enough; Max suffered but is happy now, and will be in the future, and Maggie will be happy too but she missed out on the better deal (IMO).

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    2. Does it soothe you to know that her punishment for hurting Max is that she doesn't get to share what would have been a wonderful life with him? This story has the artifice of happy endings but there is a lot of sadness over things lost. For Max and for Maggie.

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    3. Unless something happens within Maggie's marriage. She'll never know what she missed. We may but not her.

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    5. Interesting KT...do you envision a time in her life when Maggie is going to come to this realization, or do you think she’ll either never realize it or deny it to herself.

      And I’ve got another moody, weepy country song for Max and Maggie...”What Might Have Been” by Little Texas.

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    6. Living a "less wonderful" life without Max is a little soothing, but like John and JL23 are getting at, it's not punishment unless she realizes it herself at some point..

      What I'd like is that moment, when she realizes it, and settles for the path she chose. That would be soothing.

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    7. Just write a quick paragraph or two, post it here. Doesn't have to be canon, I'll just take your word

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    8. I don’t personally need Maggie to realize that Max is the one she should be with to “punish” her...I’m just legitimately curious if she ever would realize that. The Maggie in the last chapter doesn’t seem to think that at all, at least from what I read. Granted, she’s on her honeymoon, but I didn’t see any second thoughts.

      Honestly, it would be really sad for me to think she does realize it at 40 or 45 or whenever. Because Max is gone forever...he would never leave Keely for her now.

      I know people dislike Maggie here, but I like her enough not to want to picture her living the rest of her life pining for a guy who’s so close yet so out of reach for her.

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    9. I'd add, because I don't think I've mentioned this before, that although I understand these characters are young, juvenile, naive, whatever you want to call them, there's no chance Maggie was so naive to not understand the horrible implications of calling Cole "baby" right in front of Max when their exploring was so fresh and to then offer Max no mercy at all when he had to leave to tutor those students. Nope, just sitting there leaning into Cole, talking about what the two of them might spend the evening doing together.

      No fucking way, she has a cruel streak that makes the muscles in my intestines atrophy, and I want redemption, no, I DEMAND PUNISHMENT!

      Nah, not really, just some old feelings that have cooled down being revisited because of the timing of this page's scene. Even if Maggie lives blissfully with Cole until they turn 110 and die at the same exact moment, knowing she would have been happier with Max is soothing to be sure.

      I'm gonna go finish the blueprints for my marble sculpture of Keely, now. How tall was she again?

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    10. About five-nine. Remember her hair is very long.

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    11. If you really don't like Maggie and wish her ill, then think about that 70s classic, "The Devil in Miss Jones."

      from IMDB:
      "Miss Jones, a lonely, depressed spinster, commits suicide. Although she's led an exemplary life, suicide damns her. When she learns this at a way-station en route to Hell, she wishes she'd lived a more sinful life; she asks to return to earth briefly to pursue one of the seven deadly sins, lust. The clerk grants this wish, and she's first assigned a teacher who tells her to focus on pleasure even as he dispenses pain. After time with him, Miss Jones seeks pleasure with another woman, with a couple, with two men, with a stream of water from a bathtub hose, and with a bowl of fruit. When these adventures end, eternal punishment [locked in a room with a man who masturbates compulsively but does not touch her] mocks her brief experiments with lust."

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    12. Nah, Dokatsu, nothing that bad or permanent. "Justice" would be the word I'm looking for here (thanks John).

      Even during her week or so away from both of her boys, I don't get the impression that she learned anything about the effects of her cruelty and the part it played in making Max run away. In fact, when she finally does convince Max to come back, Cole is there waiting with her! Max stays because he decides "fuck it, this is my life now, I guess."

      No, that week she was sad because Max left and left her uncertain about her future and that scared her. Every decision she made before and after that she valued herself over Max. I just want her to know what it feels like to be on the other end of that.

      That's it, really. Justice. Doesn't have to be in the form of Cole cheating on her, just showing a similar selfishness would do it. A disregard for her happiness. Just once. Then she'd know what she missed out on.

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  9. Cole will cheat on maggie before (if ever) max cheats on keely. Cole was the instigator for maxs pain. Cole only suffered some minor separation (8 days). While max suffered terribly. To me this means max will never want to inflict that pain on Keely besides his preference is too watch her.

    Cole never had the big heartache so he doesnt know that pain or how he might be inflicting it on maggie by cheating. That would be one realty check for mags.
    Another would be that lightening strike i mentioned some time ago. If she is suddenly alone and spending more time with the miltons. She might witness just how loving a husband max turned out to be compared to cole.

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    1. Are you saying Cole absolutely will cheat, or he is more likely to than Max? I'll buy the second interpretation, the first one not as much. It is interesting though, there is do much potential for resentment which is usually the precursor to straying.

      Cole resenting the fact that he picked someone else's choice for his career, and Maggie resenting the fact that she could have married a man who didnt take the easy road.

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    2. John, absolutely agree about Cole and Max. kt herself said that except for some occasional playtime, Max and Keely would be absolutely true to one another sexually. Keely tells us right near the end that she only "does this" (Cole, Maggie (?)) to make Max happy.

      Cole's gonna remain a playa. He ended up with Maggie due to those skills and attributes and it will remain his way, especially if Maggie ever starts feeling regrets about dumping (on) Max and her enthusiasm starts to flag.

      Query, when does Carol tell Maggie about the playroom? Assume Cole already knows. What happens to Maggie and/or Carol when Martin drags Cole off for a week of hunting?

      Thanks for the best wishes, gang. Once you decide that you'r not going to watch television all day, and if you cannot do anything else, reading is the main activity. I was going through 5-6 books/week for many months. Erotica (even the Mapplethorpes) ends up as more fun than an endless diet of espionage and sci-fi (or as the government would say, part of a well-balanced diet). If the author is good at evoking sex (that you, kt?) then I can get some idea about what may or may not be feasible in the future.

      BTW, I feel more kindly toward Nia now than I did during the reading.

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    3. @2b2h
      I want cole to cheat. It gives me that "whats good for the goose is good for the gander" sense of justice.

      my thought however, was if cheating took place it was gonna be by cole for the reasons mentioned.

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    4. Donk - Glad you're keeping your mind active, and you have one hell of a creative mind.

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    5. Like I said, I put the chances of Max cheating at 0.0000000001% (never put zero, cause life)...but the reality is he’d never cheat on Keely. On Cole, tougher answer. I don’t think it’s automatic he would, but obviously the chances are much higher than Max.

      Here’s the scenario I’d worry about with Cole. He’s in his late thirties (I keep coming back to that age, but I think that’s an important time in a life and marriage)...he’s kind of “stuck” in a well paying, but dead end job at Oxbow. That didn’t bother him before but now it kind of does, but he doesn’t know what to do about it. He loves Maggie, but between her job and the kids they don’t have nearly the time for each other. The new young intern at Oxbow starts paying him attention, treating him like a star (Cole would be the kind of guy to keep in shape too so he still looks good). They flirt, then they flirt some more...it becomes clear to Cole she wants him. What does he do?

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    6. JL, late thirties will be when he really sees that he has been left behind by Max. Max will have a company, Keely and the smaragdine-eyed children (at least one -;)), splitting their summers between the farm upstate and the Hamptons house. He won't have to ask Martin's permission to use the hunting lodge, as Cole must. Max will have Netjets. Maggie, with her characteristic lack of regard, will remind Cole that Max really did grab the golden ring, the business equivalent of a "biggus dickus" Once more apologies to Monty Python). That intern will start looking really sweet.

      Oh, no!!!!!! Scenario 2, Oxbow transfers Cole to their HGK office for a while 1-2 years, because the other partners do not understand wtf he's doing to boost trading profits. Cole's assistant in the HKG office makes HIM her sole project. If you've ever flown Cathay Pacific long haul first class you know exactly what this means. Maggie is in real trouble. Cole is in heaven, at least until Maggie finds out. now.

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    7. Donkat...I don't remember if Keely ever said anything, but I know Max relays at the end she's only with Cole because he asks her to. I also think you can see from the beginning of her with Cole, its all for Max...she's constantly looking back at him, engaging him. Saying things she knows he wants to hear. If he asked her to stop with Cole, she would without a second thought.

      I must also add that Keely as written is simply the perfect woman for Max. Beautiful, smart, funny, caring, into his kink but totally faithful to him, understanding of his feelings for Maggie. He literally could not find a better woman, and I include Maggie in that.

      So was that intentional as well? Max loses Maggie but lands the perfect woman for him? If you want Maggie to feel a little "pain," maybe her realization that Keely is the better woman for Max in just about every respect would put a slight pit in her stomach.

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    8. @JL - evil scenario #3: Cole's intern (NY) or assistant (HKG) is a gorgeous Hong Kong gal, graduated in math from Hong Kong University, MBA from Chicago - Booth, where math nerds go to B-school. Unbeknownst to Cole she is also the daughter of one of Carol's old running buddies from Wanchai. Like her mother, and Carol, she has mastered pubocoxxygeal muscle control and the dark arts of vaginal peristalsis. Every word and act is reported back through the Wanchai network. Once again, game, set, match Carol.

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    9. Donkat...you definitely have to flesh out (no pun intended) one of these ideas fully. Hopefully your rehab will allow you the time. I have to read a story that uses the phrase “the dark arts of vaginal peristalsis.”

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    10. Pfffwow. That's great @Donkatsu ha ha. If you have more recuperation ahead, you might want to consider writing some erotic thrillers, ala Eric Van Lustbader. Joking/not joking

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    11. Thanks @kt, maybe Maggie can become a decades-long multi-author saga, like Larry Niven's Ringworld or Man-Kzin Wars. @JL even better to experience, as every man should at least once [500 times - ed.], what vaginal peristalsis can do to you than to read about it ;) Remember, I dated Carol for two years.

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    12. The problems with the argument is Keeley is virtually unknown and only brought in the story because.... Well the author wanted Maggie to marry Cole for some stupid reason. It's bad writing to just push a new character out of the blue like that.

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    13. Well, to be clear she was mentioned in the first book, but your point is that in order for a love story to be good the love interest has to be a developed character? Ever heard of the term Deus Ex Machina?

      Not that KT was trying to do this, but this qualifies as that. It's quite common in literature.

      I'll say this, it sounds like your objection is more that Maggie and Cole ended up together. I think we all share that frustration, but it was clear throughout t story that was gonna happen.

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    14. Uh yes she was mentioned BARELY. And no it wasn't clear that throughout the story it was 'bound' to happen. Cole felt cookie cut and fake and Jake was abruptly thrown to the curb because he was simply no longer important. It felt lazy.

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    15. Jay's value to this story is to establish that Maggie wanted more and sought to find it, i.e. Cole, once she found him, Jay was no longer needed.

      There, value established.

      I'll let you catch up to my other comments.

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  10. I found the song that probably exemplifies the moment when it became clear there would be an impending witch hunt in reaction to Maggie choosing Cole among readers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990kOZxIOKw

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  11. Also, to add my (mostly non-spoilerly) thoughts on Quarry. I think Joanie cheating and thinking those things about Mac are a really important part, as painful as it was. It really allows Mac to then do...all the things he does later on in the season. There’s such a complicated mix of emotions, because I think Mac even thinks a lot of those things about himself.

    The show is really a commentary on how we treated Vietnam vets back in the day. Cause they didn’t “win.”

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    1. Juno Lima, totally agree with you - most of us have conflicted feelings about the whole thing - loyalty, service, comradeship, danger, thrills, fear, loss, abandonment, ridicule, worthy cause poorly done, crappy cause with inevitable outcome, you name it. In 2004, when that traitorous creature ran for president, I used to ask people all the time in social settings if I looked like a war criminal to them. Most of us can repeat the "Genghis Khan lines from his 1972 testimony line for line. Talk about a turd in the punchbowl. Doesn't matter especially whether the war was "just" or necessary. If I didn't go who did? Not another college boy. There were lots of Cliffs hanging around the ladies.

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    2. Well, got that off my chest, didn't I.

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  12. Just wanted to give my thoughts on KT's choice to leave this discussion out. I think it was a better choice, stylistically, mostly because we hadn't really seen the potential to take charge of a situation over an authority figure up until this point, and obviously she was due a level of growth when it came to this, but it wouldn't have been easy to swallow, particularly that last paragraph which was fucking Erin Brockovich - like.

    It was clear that was the level Maggie was going to achieve in life, but just a day after 'yes mai'aming' her mother (although to be fair she did put a verbal foot down about marrying Max on time) it would have probably felt inauthentic.

    To be honest though, I would have probably been lauding Maggie's greatness had KT kept that in, so who knows ...

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    1. It's a difficult scene to write because it is supposed to be her Erin Brockovich-like moment but she also has to play the tape and relive what Jay did to her. I think KT wanted to make sure the scene felt like a victory lap but that little piece would steal almost anyones thunder and hinder their confidence.. I think leaving the scene out and letting us wonder about it was the right move.

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  13. I have a pet theory that part of the reasons these blog posts get blown through with comments so fast is because some of the posters hope KT will make a new master post where there'll be more new information or possibly a hint about what's coming next.

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    1. Ha ha, I'm glad to have people who care what's coming next!

      Might be nothing. If you take a look at all your favorite erotica authors you'll see we have no more ranks. Not just me, all of us. Behind the scenes I've lost all my sales ranks and author ranks.

      Could be nothing, but I don't think it's nothing.

      How does this Patreon thing work again?

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    2. Do all the Patreon things, take my money

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    3. Well that sucks...Amazon would be stupid to be doing stuff like that, but we’re all just cogs in their own giant Oxbow wheel unfortunately.

      Up for Patreon, or whatever, if it goes that way.

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    4. Could be bad news but it could also actually be good news too. Just sucks when they won't tell you what they're doing and you're trying to run a business from their flea market and they won't even tell you if there's going to be room for your stall this weekend. Makes it tough. I have to put my pen down and wait to see what this will mean eventually before I can move on.

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    5. I've been begging you to formalize taking my money since I suggested
      a 'Go Fund Me' account back in LHW2.

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    6. Just because I can't quite tell if the question about how Patreon works is rhetorical...

      The way I see it run by writers is either set to charge patrons per month or set to charge patrons per story published. Patrons may pledge to a creator any amount they choose. Many writers create multiple tiers of pledges that have varying rewards. For example, if a patron pledges X dollars per post they get to see the stories, or if they pledge X+5 maybe they get behind the scenes out-takes like we've seen here this past week. If set to charge per post, the charges are automatically recorded to the patron account as soon as the post is made, but either way Patreon only actually charges the account at the end of the month. I don't know what sort of cut Patreon takes.

      The Patreon page itself is structured like a blog. Posts can be set to be visible to patrons only, or to certain tiers of patrons only, but can also include public posts a casual browser can read. Content is usually released to the patrons by this method, though some creators choose to send rewards by direct e-mails.

      Adult content Patreons need to be flagged and are removed from the site's search, and about six months ago there was some furor over a change in policy over some adult content creators (https://www.patreon.com/guidelines#adult-content) but I never saw much actual change, and frankly I don't feel that your works fall under the categories they seem to be concerned about.

      As might be evident from the notes above, Patreon is usually a supplement page for some other distribution or exposure system for writers, as it isn't really structured in a way to increase exposure or let a casual browser come by and purchase a single story. It's structured for established fans/literal patrons.

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    7. My long-ass post purely motivated by appreciation for your stories, and frustration with Amazon for hindering you and causing concern over the security of your market stall.

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    8. I hope you don't put your pen down indefinitely waiting to see what this means and they just never clarify it.

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    9. @kt - Does this mean Amazon is "deplatforming" content they don't agree with politically or psychosexually? If so, it probably means Bezos is running for president of the U.S.

      Re: Joni (that doll!). I believe the accepted word these days is "othering" rather than depersonalization. It is a "bigger" concept but the essence is much the same - transforming an individual into a status that is lower than those of the members of the group, thereby justifying actions that would be unthinkable when applied to members of the group.

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    10. You better not stop now.. I only discovered you like 5 months ago..

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    11. I don't like that KT's silence since her initial thoughts in this thread!

      Come on, Amazon!

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  14. Am I just ultra dense or did anyone else fail to see what the Vogue Japan 'Trailer' meant for the last Maggie? I just realized I completely forgot that whole mystery I was developing in my head as to what it might mean.

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    3. Wasnt sure but thought it was maggie in limbo not really sure what she wanted to do. The obvious question who knocked?
      My vote goes to alteri's delivery dude.

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    5. Yes, that was my guess as well...Maggie’s internal struggle to decide which one she wants...knock on the door representing the moment in her mind when she realizes it. So it’s Cole knocking...or it’s something completely different. Either or.

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    6. @2b2h
      Dont feel to bad about it i didnt give it much thought until you brought it up. Then after compiling all the discussion we had about the story, I came up with that...

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    7. Maybe it's that period after the ring steal where Maggie has pushed Cole away until until she finds Max, and he shows up at her door at day 10?

      Maybe I got thrown off by Lauren's bubbly attitude (and killer smile) to the mystery guy at the door.

      I know it wasn't supposed to be intended for her story so how could it be perfect but I realized I never answered that question about what it meant as I was reading.

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    8. ... And yeah Lauren and I are at a first name basis.

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    9. Waiting for Ken at the hotel in Providence was what I was getting at!

      Obviously not exact, ha ha

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    10. Ah, that was my second guess, certainly a more accurate comparison to that trailer!

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  15. I really hate to write this, but I absolutely did not like this book. The ending destroyed it for me and made no sense whatsoever. Seriously? Maggie ends up with Cole and Max ends up smiling and nodding with some character that isn't even mentioned? Talk about BAD writing and a way to totally spoil an otherwise good series. Hope your other books don't end like this because I really enjoyed The Landlord series and several others of your work.

    I liked small parts of this book but the ending was stupid.

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    1. Oh and sorry if I spoiled it for people. I'm just too pissed and feel like my time was cheated.

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    2. Hey Jeff, question for you. What would have made the ending good?

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    3. Keely is in less than half the book, but in those pages her character shows more virtue and love than Maggie did in 6. The ending made perfect sense, although I didn't like Maggie's choice but her choice it the most Maggie choice she could have made.

      Somehow I don't think that's really your opinion of the story as a whole if you went through the trouble of posting here AND writing a review.. You're angry at Maggie's decision, I am too, but to say it made no sense is just wrong.

      Also don't worry about spoilers

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    4. Well, while WA's opinion about Maggie above seems a bit 'hot-takey' to me, his general point I absolutely agree with. Did the ending ultimately make sense to the story? I think it absolutely did, and isn't that test of a good story? If the ending is true to the story?

      If your answer to that question is, Maggie didn't marry Max, or Max fell in love with a character I barely know, well that's just an opinion on the ending. Doesn't make it bad writing, it means you didn't like how it ended.

      In a story about the relationship between Maggie and Max, why would it matter that we know the ins and outs of another character that Max ends up with? And couldn't it be argued that the existence of that character spoils the good ending?

      I'm willing to bet that more than a few of the readers here were wondering when Max's torment was going to end. That torment wouldn't have existed if Keely was a ubiquitous character in this story. That's my opinion on Keely, she was 'fortuitous' as Maggie described her.

      You can decide not to like how convenient that character is, but in terms of emotional impact, she was definitely not something that an amateur creates.

      In the end Jeff - to your review - you are making the absolute worst argument imaginable when you say that ANY author should write something that you like, and not something of their own idea. That's weak sauce. Authors need to stay true to themselves, and if you don't like it, which it's clear is your only legitimate argument here, then you should consider leaving it alone. And not bashing the author of a series that you loved for hundreds and hundreds of pages because you thought she didn't consider your opinion enough.

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    5. Look, I don't like endings where the wife leaves the husband or the fiance or whatever. It destroys the eroticism and the fantasy for me and it felt rather weird that Max was just all okay with that. Maybe you find it hot that the wife leaves her husband for another man, but I find it a major arousal killer. I doubt I'll ever read Maggie series again and can't recommend it to anyone else I know who happens to like this sort of thing.

      If this happens to the Landlord series (if it ever gets ended) I'll never read anything of hers again.

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    6. Also I didn't think Cole had any real depth and although I got that idea that Maggie loved Cole it really made me think she just loved his dick and there really was nothing there to really like. Which made me think of Maggie as a superficial individual.

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    7. To answer your question what would make the ending good? Maggie and Max get married and Cole ends up with the undeveloped female character. Cookie cut, but that's how I like my endings in erotica. In other fiction not so much.

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    8. Jeff you're playing a silly hand here, I'm sorry. Who cares if all you want is the happiest ending? I've wanted Cole and Maggie to be a healthy couple from the beginning, I seriously doubt that they are now, but who cares what I think?? Did the story move me and get me off, damn right it did. Still does, and you should read what KT has said about the ending, because she wishes that Max and Maggie ended up together. Does that make you feel better about it?

      Sorry, I'm getting heated, but it's because you are seriously underestimating the value of good literature when you start inserting your own personal bias.

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    9. Really? Cole had no character development and nothing that drew me in whatsoever. Keep your opinions because I simply don't care. I bet you believed that this ending was more realistic or something. No realism would have been Max buying a gun and killing them both (as the ugliest ending of all time) or no one ending up with anyone. Basically Cole Maggie and Max go separate ways completely.

      Either way this story wasn't particularly realistic in that sense at all. For one, love isn't something you just shrug at and then turn and go with some character for no real rhythm or reason. I definitely couldn't see Max attending the wedding with a smile after 6 years. Not that long and especially when it concerns love.

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    10. That's fine that you don't care about my opinion, but I'll say mine one more time. You don't know what you're talking about if you call this woman an amateur writer.

      Jeff you nailed my opinion down pretty well, I DID think it was pretty realistic. I think your realistic ending is interesting, maybe you could write a 200,000+ worded series that has hundreds and hundreds of comments in reaction with that in mind?

      No one's love was shrugged, soo ... you lost me there. Like severely missed the point.

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    11. Okay, I've had to take some breaths and think I have to be honest with myself. I wanted a happy ending (and this wasn't one no matter what anyone tries to tell me on here) because of the horrible things that have been happening in the world and some of the rough moments I've been having. If I wanted bleakness I would have read a horror novel or watched a depressing drama.

      It didn't end how I liked but ToBe is right. That's simply how it goes some times and you have to accept it. Again sorry for my horrible reaction. I get emotionally invested and that's actually a mark of a good writer, not a bad one. Hope you keep writing and think about some of my criticism (the constructive stuff). Again I'm sorry.

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    12. Jeff, now we can talk! You don't have to apologize to anyone here about whether you thought the ending was bad or good, but you should consider the impact you're going to have on an author you otherwise really like be leaving such a brutal review considering your revelation here ...

      Reviews are critical for authors!

      As for my opinion on what you're saying, I apologize because I am mostly arguing about the place that you were forming your arguments from (you're anger about the type of ending you want), it wasn't on solid foundations. So I'm coming off as short and probably abrasive, I'm mostly contending that I thought the ending made sense and it was a sign of good writing. Not that I'm a super literature savvy individual, I just know what impact it had on me. And it had one on you too!

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    13. Me too, Jeff. In fact, I made a pretty detailed post on the Maggie finale discussion page #3 where I explained that this story became more of a horror story than an erotic one for me at some point.

      I'm right there with you emotionally, but don't let that cloud your opinion of the story which was brilliant with brilliant characters.

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    14. maybe it was #2

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    15. I suspect you just finished reading this. I jumped into this series a little late, I think on the third or fourth novel. But every time, I'd jump into these blog posts and make similar rants, but not at the writing or the author but at the characters. So I get that you're emotionally charged right now, that's okay. Just give it some time, it'll pass. Read through these blog posts if you like. You'll find both perspectives and if you're like me, you'll settle on some middle ground. I think Cole is a shit stain, but if Maggie loves him, then that's that, you know?

      But after you do that, please consider editing your review of this story on Amazon because it really is a disservice to how great this story really was.

      Delete
    16. Honestly I love the Landlord Reza series way more and hope that one has a better ending than this one. It seems like a number of authors in the erotic persuasion go with just one ending and it's always a variation of the same. Which was why I was upset mostly.

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    17. Jeff your opinion is perfectly valid...if you didn’t like the ending I’m sorry you feel that way. But I don’t think it’s fair to argue it’s poorly written or stupid. I was rooting for Max and Maggie to end up together too...but if you go back and read the chapters it’s pretty clear Cole and Maggie were a definite possibility. It didn’t come out of nowhere, even if I didn’t want to see it first.

      In the end, I like Max ending up with Keely...I think she’s a better fit for him. Yes, we don’t see her really until the end, but I don’t have a huge issue with it. This happens all the time in real life, we break up with someone and meet someone new.

      Sure I would have loved to see the early Keely/Max interactions...but I get the clear sense they are in love, and Max is happy at the end. For me, that’s all I wanted in the ending...Max to be happy.

      I would also argue Cole has a little more depth than you give him credit for, but I don’t want to get into deep on it now. Not trying to persuade anyone at this point on that.

      But WA bringing up Amazon reminds me I should write a review of the story over there. I forgot to do that, and given everything going on KT deserves a good review. Maybe it’ll help...probably not but who knows.

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    18. @Jeff B Hmm, maybe we've been reading different stories. I like the Reza series just fine, but I found that one much more "traditional" for the genre than this one. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just different.

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    19. Jeff your ability to admit you maybe overstepped a line is really refreshing, You should come back so we can all talk about the ending.

      I found the ending to be quite different than LHW and LHW2.

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    20. That's not really what I meant @WorldsApart, what I meant was that I meant is that a lot of authors go with the same general ending when it comes to erotica. I mean this mostly falls true on literotica writers and I've noticed it on Amazon as well.

      Anyway I changed it to 3 stars. I liked the first 3 way more than the proceeding books of this series. I hope this writer keeps writing and plugging away. It would be pretty generic if she made every ending 'happy.' This felt like a sort of bittersweet ending with Max finding happiness with someone that really no one can feel any connection for. I suppose that Max fell more for his voyeurism and his relationship with Maggie went down because of it.

      She wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with and her alone. Max wanted something like to be the voyeur while she really did like the exhibitionist side of things she couldn't do it without falling in love with the person...

      Again I really don't see any depth with Cole. He had some but again I didn't get a real sense of connection with him and Maggie. Again maybe it's because reading it at this angle I felt like Maggie didn't really love Max all that much despite her claims and the ending pretty much exposed her as a liar.

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    21. @Jeff this may sound repetitive but I liked the ending it wasnt the one i would have chosen if it were a multiple choice. But it upset my apple cart and provoked emotion. Thats how I judge a good story. If its a cookie cutter ending i won't enjoy. The main attraction i have with KTs stories is the familiarity i get with the charactors. The level of detail that goes into the telling. If you need an example just look at the discription of the ring pull..so much detail went into such a quick and sudden move by Max.

      That it ended with out the recon or completely busted but somewhere in between is another reason i like this author. If all endings are typical happy endings (you know the ones i mean). Than i lose interest. The most important part for me is that the story has to lead them there. In this one knowing maggies behavior with Jay and Cole even that i wished Max would win. The story lead away from that and the conclusion is she wouldnt be with Max but with Cole or someone else and it made sense to me.

      In the after parties we been having here we can retrace steps and see a bigger picture. That max got his own life going after maggie was a win win for all. The plot wasnt forced there, it just happened that way.

      Thanks for posting.

      Welcome to the blog.

      Always cool when another fan checks in.

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    22. Honestly the worst ending I've seen in erotica story was one where the husband kills the wife and her lover than turns the gun on himself. It was absolutely disgusting. This one wasn't bad at all. I kind of wished that Max's eventual bride came more into the story and there was a transition that made sense. It didn't feel right at all especially when they spent the whole time making amends and coming back together.

      But I get what you're saying John C.

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    23. Whats really cool is we have an author willing to share their thoughts and particpate in Q&A's.

      Also helps when all us die hards share our thoughts and make points counterpoints.

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    24. Yeah, there's a 6 year gap between the lodge and the marriage. There's a lot we have to fill in the gap for. Keely is fresh to us as readers but Max had been interacting with her for years before the marriage.

      I've thought about it, and KT could have kept the story going for 10 more books to cover that gap, but then we wouldn't have the mystery over who Maggie is marrying. Idk about you guys, but when it was revealed as Cole, I think I said "Oh no, oh no no no" for a minute before I kept reading. Just an artistic decision that left us wondering during the dance. I like it.

      Although, I wouldn't mind some more information about that time gap. We've discussed it a lot, and the general consensus is that Max has been gradually getting over Maggie over the course of his relationship with Keely. And Keely was there the whole time, watching him pine over Maggie, waiting and just demonstrating a level of compassion that Maggie could never have. It's a beautiful thing.

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    25. It's weird, because I'm an artist/creative (graphic design and illustration) and I found Maggie to be sort of unlikeable. I mean it seemed like she gushed about her Max talking all about her and everything needed to revolve around her.

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    26. Me too! Finally I have some company xD

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    27. Yes, there's a bit of a leap of faith you have to commit to with Keely. When you first read her, she seems a little too perfect, a little too understanding. It does feel a little convenient, at least that's the reading I had when I first read it.

      But I did find myself making that leap after reading through the Keely/Max passages a few times. Yes, she's still perfect (in my eyes), but clearly her and Max have been through a bit to get to this point. There is a tension with her, just below the surface, about Maggie, I think.

      But Max is her project in some ways, a nice guy that she knows is worth the effort and risk. She just gets him, better than Maggie than ever did probably. And he loves her, even if a part of his heart is holding onto Maggie until the very end.

      And as KT stated, by the time of the wedding Max has been dating Keely for as long as he ever dated Maggie. They have a fun playful relationship, and a great sex life (even without playtime with Cole and Maggie).

      After multiple readings and a lot of talk through the comments here, in my head they'll be fine. Great marriage, lots of love and babies...what more could you want? As WA said its a beautiful thing.

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    28. I think Maggie's selfish side can be explained by her upbringing. All her life she was rigidly controlled and supervised by the wealth of her family, and though I don't think she showed signs of letting it affect what kinds of things she wants out of life or even the things she likes, I mean she's a pizza and beer gal after all, I do think we should read into how Ken and Maggie herself described themselves when they said that they were socially and emotionally stunted by their upbringing. Just by virtue of being someone that constantly was waited on hand and foot Maggie has to overcome the belief that things will just fall into her lap. She was still taking mom and dad's money for little things around campus, she's not thinking about how much money is left when she does that, she's thinking, "I need something, I can buy it now."

      I think this played into how she acts towards Max in this book once she realized there are other men she wants to explore feelings of love with. Because of how amazing Max is objectively to Maggie (let's leave the withholding of facts and lies out), Maggie had this new pleasant thing that she could always rely on. It became this new possession, she wanted Max's beautiful friendship forever, and didn't acknowledge that she shouldn't be holding onto his heart for so long.

      She was right to trust the instinct that said she should keep Max around her, but should have ignored the concept that they should keep doing a love triangle. It's a position that all three of them shared mind you, I think you guys keep forgetting that Max is a willing participant in this threesome even AFTER Schroon Lake, even if it is not something that should they have been doing long-term for themselves. It's hard to judge Maggie as purely a selfish, superficial person when she has the very men in her ear whose feelings she should consider, talking about and thinking that they are in this with her.

      Ultimately, Maggie grows up and realizes she really wants Cole and she stops treating Max's love like another possession that she doesn't need to pay attention to where it came from, what limits it has, the conditions it comes with, etc. and we have probably the last three years of this story (i.e. hooking Max up with Keely, gradually drifting apart but sharing love of friendship. Well Friendship Plus).

      I don't think you can possibly view Maggie as being unselfish when it came to the hearts of Max and Cole, but you can understand where that came from, and if it's indicative of the person Maggie is, or a lesson she needs to learn.

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    29. Maggie's love of Cole and Vice Versa

      I wanted to summarize what I thought of Maggie's love of Cole because I am now questioning it being on solid foundations. I've started to view Maggie's love of Cole to be sort of a symbolic "coming to terms" with going the route that Mom and Dad had for Maggie from the beginning. Sort of her unrealized pivot in her life towards that. I only think she is partially conscious (career move and relationship choice) of this pivot, mind you. Cole is a good guy that will likely treat Maggie right (contrary to what a lot of people think of him, imo), but I think Maggie's attraction to him besides being a gorgeous man, is that he exudes a lot of traits of her father (when she wants to see him that way that is), and that is safe for her as she starts taking on more and more responsibility. There will come a time though when she realizes that she barely acknowledges anything about what Cole likes and who Cole really is.

      I don't know if I said this as evidence when I brought up my long breakdown of why I think Maggie is throwing away her independence by picking Cole, but when she destroyed that picture that she made about her trying to escape and grow up, it was like she was condemning the reasons for why she wanted that for herself. She should have looked at that picture and remembered why she started her journey, and reestablish her goals, but instead she completely chastised herself for letting things get out of hand, as if, "How dare I want that for myself?"

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    30. Cole's love of Maggie

      I think Cole genuinely loves Maggie for Maggie. He knows a lot about her, from the type of artist she is, her music, and he wants to make sure she knows she is the most important girl for him, caring and trusting about her space as she deals with major issues, totally present with her in the sac (giver and taker there, not selfish), and accommodating to her wants and needs. He also does have a love of the value of her wealth and family, which when I put that with what I mentioned before caring about her net-worth, makes sense and is fair, social standing and worth is supposed to be a factor right? We can talk about not caring about it as the central factor for love, but it is a factor we should acknowledge. I think he's married Maggie for all the right reasons, so now it's time to see if Maggie will realize if she did it for the right ones.

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    31. TBTH you make a lot of great points again. I’m with you on a lot of it. Especially the Cole stuff, I do agree he genuinely loves Maggie. I also think with each of the 4 we can come up with questions as to why they chose their ultimate partner...except for Keely, I don’t see any reason to question her choosing Max (though who knows).

      But again, I don’t necessarily think that’s a wrong thing. Sometimes it happens in life, as long as love is the primary reason then you can get past the other things.

      For Max and Keely, I think they’re already past the major hurdles, especially if you believe the interpretation, as I do, that Max has completely let go of any romantic love towards Maggie on that balcony.

      Maggie and Cole may still have hurdles to overcome, as I agree neither have fully come to terms with some of the outside factors that brought them together. But there are by no means doomed, I do believe there is a underlying love between them that gives them a strong foundation.

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  17. Ive come to accept keely as is. Also maggie. I agree i didnt like what maggie was doing but with all her "i love you maxy" I gave her the benefit of the doubt while reading. Cole was just cole. He didnt open thw door someone else did. But once it was open it was like exposing your jugular to Dracula. He was gonna get it. Of course we are all in hindsight right now but as we read through the story. It was difficult to separate out good guy from bad guy. Max the silently in pain type, Cole the over protective alpha type, and maggie the idk what i want shit, piss, or get off the pot type. Maybe too simplustic comparitively

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    1. Actually I still think of Maggie and Max deserving each other more than anything. Both have way more in common than her and Cole. Of course this may have not worked out for that very reason. I also couldn't make much sense out of Maggie going to Harvard but I might have glossed over the reasoning behind it.

      As for Jay I didn't care how he was cast aside because he was by far the reason I even started reading the series. Cole kind of spoiled it for me and made it less enjoyable.

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  18. Sad news for all of you hoping to emulate Martin's epic quest ISO the real Carol: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/lights-dim-on-bangkoks-nightlife-as-military-tries-to-salvage-legacy/2018/03/23/1e8c6780-2856-11e8-874b-d517e912f125_story.html?utm_term=.6703681d1cf1

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  19. I want to amend my nomination for June Milton's theme song to Shelter by Madeon and Porter Robinson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQnC1UHBvWA

    They also made a short film the uses the song that is just awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzQ6gRAEoy0

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  20. I'm mostly over the characters and hope the author continues with plans to keep writing. Just can't wait to see what else comes out.

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    1. Jeff - you're just catching up with us. We were all over the place at the end just like you. But we have had time to decompress compare notes remember key events and most importantly get into the authors head and learn who was feeling what and when.

      I think Maxs strongest moment was the ring pull. His weakest was either thinking about pulling levers and throwing switches or not stopping maggie on the beach/ first bedroom scene with cole.

      Maggie i really couldnt figuire out. Hell, she didnt know what she wanted so how could I. She was being very intimate with Cole yet she included Max (had to) on everything. Constantly stroked his ego and told him countless times how much she loved him. But like the song goes "where you invest your love your invest your life."

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    2. Jeff - you're just catching up with us. We were all over the place at the end just like you. But we have had time to decompress compare notes remember key events and most importantly get into the authors head and learn who was feeling what and when.

      I think Maxs strongest moment was the ring pull. His weakest was either thinking about pulling levers and throwing switches or not stopping maggie on the beach/ first bedroom scene with cole.

      Maggie i really couldnt figuire out. Hell, she didnt know what she wanted so how could I. She was being very intimate with Cole yet she included Max (had to) on everything. Constantly stroked his ego and told him countless times how much she loved him. But like the song goes "where you invest your love your invest your life."

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    3. Honestly I think they could never be together because Max was a voyeur and Maggie although an exhibitionist seemed to have this tendency of falling in love with those she slept with or she would simply take it way too far. Keely was more just let sex be sex and that was all it was to her, Max was hers and that was that.

      Maggie was all about loving two people equally which wasn't something that Max wanted.

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    4. It's so easy to imagine a parallel universe where Max puts his foot down earlier, says his piece, tells Maggie not to fall in love, doesn't allow the conflicted hurt and lust to freeze him when it mattered, and Maggie never wanders too far.

      I think Maggie was just blinded by love, blind to the direction she was going and to the damage she was doing to Max and their relationship. It had to be clear as day on the look on his face when she told him she wanted to have an open relationship. Max is either one hell of a poker player or Maggie just didn't really care.

      There were so, so many moments like that, where I couldn't help but wonder how Maggie couldn't spot the distress in Max. How can you know someone so well, love someone so much, and not notice their pain unless you just care more about what you want? I doubt Max is much of a poker player..

      That parallel universe is fun to think about, but I think everyone found the right partner for them in the end.

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    5. Well I wouldn't argue with you on that world... That's the problem though because I don't think Maggie could do this whole thing without falling in love. Even with Jay was starting to develop some feelings for. She wasn't the sort to do it without developing some sort of feelings. Keely was the one that could go and have sex but treat it for what it was worth.

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  21. Hey, I was wondering if there was going to be a sequel to the Size Curious Brat series. That was another one I really loved... Also Measured Next To Her Ex, Super hot story with a lot of potential for a sequel.

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  22. I'm a wanderer here, and I have a question I can't find the answer to anywhere else:
    WHY do some people enjoy hurting and sexually humiliating people they actually love? I'm interested in anyone's opinion, and in particular yours, K.T.

    I'm asking as a reader and possible writer of erotica of this sort, and I'm being very specific with my question. Because, let's face it, this phenomenon is at the heart of fiction and fantasy of this sort. Writers like yourself, and Matthew Lee, and your fellow cuckold/hotwife authors tell stories about people who truly love and care about their significant others, yet also truly get off on the emotional violence they inflict on them.

    Or so it seems. Is the love real? Does this psychosexual Jekyll/Hyde thing really exist? Or are the hotwives/cuckoldresses just emotionally gaslighting the shit out of their men, or deceiving themselves about really loving them, or living in denial about enjoying the pain they cause them, or what?

    Are there any women here who are or have been in a cuckold/hotwife/one-way-open-relationship situation, who have experienced both loving and caring about a man, and enjoying the fear and uncertainty on his face as he watched you pull your bull's much bigger cock out of his shorts?

    If so, why?? Any input, please. This is a real mystery to me. Thank you all in advance.

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    1. It's a kink, a sexual turn on for some people, to be humiliated sexually or to humiliate their significant other sexually. It can vary a lot, sometimes it's just watching, sometimes it's just flirting, sometimes it's pretend, and sometimes people like the more extreme stuff (actively being humiliated in conversation, cock cages, stuff like that). Sometimes the hotwife doesn't even get off on it, but they do it anyway because their husband asks them nicely to do it. The variation is part of the mystery.

      But it's sex and it doesn't have to overlap with the loving relationship. The love is real, sometimes thats why it happens at all. Most people are so ashamed of the fact that they enjoy watching or vice versa that their relationships never explore this kind of thing. It's just a massive turn on and that's it.

      You might visit the website ourhotwives.org

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    2. Its variable some do it for the porn of it; the voyeurs and some do it for the control or lack therof. When it happened to me i was a puritan and didnt recognize what was happening she was cheating on me and i found it exciting . Partly because she wasnt leaving me and partly i knew how hot in bed she was. Ultimately we divorced. Had i been aware of the life style then ....who knows. They call it angst. That feeling you get when you suspect. Think of parachuting. Your in the plane safe and sound junp master says stand up an get in the door. You adrenalin kicks in and you break a cold sweat butterflies flutter in you stomach. You body is preparing itself for conflict... jumping from the safety of the airplane into a drop that will kill you if the chute dont open..its an awesome rush. But sitting in the plane is alot like suspecting he/she is cheating. Jumping is knowing they are and the chute opening is when they come back and tell you about it or its revealed. It is very different from person to person like some want to jump at 5000 feet others at 1000 and yet others who like the halo jump. Some wanna be pushed while others say dont get between me and the door. This discription wont satisfy all or even many.. try checking some of the cuckold sites or hot wife sites. The spectrum is very wide.

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    3. Thank you for your responses, all, but they are kind of going around the question I asked.

      I understand, as well as an 'outsider' can, why being humiliated can be a tremendous turn-on for some people. What I am asking is, how is it possible to get a thrill out of DOING it, specifically to someone you love or care about?

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    4. @W: some people enjoy cruelty, just as others wish to receive it. Otherwise, there would be no slaves for the masters or submissive for the doms. Seriously, you must have seen people who like to make other uncomfortable, or humiliate them, or inflict pain. Jess M. loved humiliating Peter. Even Nia got off on inflicting pain on poor Geoff once in a while. Look at girls play and see what happens to the black swan.

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    5. I dont think youre gonna find a one size fits all answer for that. Theres all kinds of things that make it work for each. Things that ive heard of recently, terms that i never heard before like compersion, and NRE. (New relationship emotions). The humiliation is just another aspect like some guys like big boobs others not so much. The why is best left to the shrinks and neurological peeps.

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    6. I think the reasons one would do that are multitudinous. Like, a combination lock where you just have to line up all the jagged teeth for it to happen.

      I can only speak of what I would do for a group of characters: if a husband enjoys it the wife would be able to humiliate him because she has license. And once you have that license it probably comes with a strong adrenalin boost of temporary power. And who doesn't like to have power? I think it would be possible to get off on having incredible power over someone—knowing you can wield it as irresponsibly or as kindly as you wish, keep the person guessing—but that there's a certain safety net there in that you are both in on it, and that the submissive partner is willing. The humiliation in my books is generally performed with other alpha males and I think that's risky because they're not sex toys, they're real live human beings with dangerous designs of their own; and alpha males have an innate power. Really dangerous to mess with, and that's what I love about these stories is the danger. But in real life there are couples who have this sorted out and do just fine.

      Truth of my answer is: I don't know! It's true though, some people get off on it, and hey, that's their thing. Could it be from early age sexual imprinting? Like, being snubbed in grade school, losing a gf when you're at your hormonal peak? I don't even know. Maybe.

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    7. The taboo nature of it alone is enough for some people. For me, it's not so much about the humiliation or power trip but about two people giving in to their most basic desires and throwing to the wind the things that would culturally or ethically make what they're doing wrong. Adding in humiliation and power (even if it's only pretend!) on top of that adds fuel to it, makes it even more careless which adds to it somehow. But it doesn't have to be those things specifically, it just has to be forbidden.

      That's why the Maggie series works, because even though it's not really any of those things, at least not intentionally, it's ethically questionable ("forbidden"). I don't know why people get off on it; I think you'd have to have a therapist break it down and discover it on an individual basis, an imprint like KT said.

      But it's not like that's all there is, it's just one thing. One thing that someone has learned about what they like. Forbidden things are exciting, but it's not a limiting factor. Just like this kind of thing could be a sexual imprint, so can the things that attract us to people like our parents, attract us to people with dark hair, broad arms, big boobs, whatever, like John said.

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  23. @kt, @john C, @Wanderer, @WA - as kt noted earlier in the thread, seconded by John C, the cuckold theme is spreading, going more mainstream. In the season opener of "Billions,"{warning, spoiler ahead} Chuck Rhodes, the DA going after Bobby Axe, is a submissive for his shrink wife, who is also Axe's corporate therapist.

    His need to be punished through restraint and flogging is accompanied by his explicit demands for her to tell him how she is being bulled by under-30, ripped, big cock (she has cheated on him with a younger man}, she acts as a submissive, sex is ämazing" what Chuck can do is not even in the same league. Chuck enjoys the exquisite mix of mental pain, jealousy, humiliation, and physical pain.

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    1. Love Billions...like I said earlier, Wendy Rhodes is Carol and Chuck Rhodes is Martin. I stand by that assessment.

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    2. @JL, if Wendy is Carol, then who is the Chinese dominatrix Chuck sees occasionally? It must be the daughter of one of Carol's Wanchai gang.

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    3. Ha, yeah I guess that could be Carol too...

      I have to admit watching that scene, with the Chuck character demanding to know the details of his wife's affair with the younger guy, my mind was filled with all sorts of uncomfortable thoughts of Carol and Cole...I blame all of you people for putting that in my head.

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    4. None of those impure thoughts with Chuck and Wendy would have generated nearly the same frisson without the efforts of our hostess and fearless guide, kt. Best of luck with Jeff's minions.

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    5. I bailed on Billions early on—I may have to give it another look.

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    6. Its a ridiculous show...the dialogue and the scenarios are way over the top. But if you accept its ridiculousness, the show is actually quite entertaining. I sense the writers have embraced it and just go with it.

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    7. @JL, ridiculous dialogue and scenarios did not stop opera from becoming high art, or the movies of Kurosawa from enjoying cult status.

      @kt, does Cole ever get a key to the playroom?

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    8. @Donkat....believe me, I didn’t mean “ridiculous” as an insult...I love every second of it.

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    9. @JL, Fully understand ridiculous in this context. I have been watching French movies for years. Imagine the story line and dialogue of "Young and Beautiful" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2752200/) from any other country or in some other language: totally silly. But, with {the astonishingly lovely} Marine Vacth and the rest of the silly story line it all makes sense, in French.

      And kt, nobody does this the way you do. We will tell Jeff that he will lose all the regular voters who like good sex, good stories, and good characters.

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  24. Whoa. I just caught up to the fireworks. I can relate. I emailed KT about half way through this series to tell her I was tapping out b/c it was becoming clear to me that Max was not strong enough to win this one. I was pissed. And about a week later I started again. KT's wicked wiles sucked me back in. Giving me just enough hope that Max might grow a pair. That a strong cuck wasnt an impossibility.
    Of course I was crushed. But I absolutely love KT's characters, rich descriptions and creative endings. She's really exceptional, esp in this genre.
    Amazon - In the words of Tina Turner, You better be good to her!
    Oh by the way, what other author offers video insights to help develop characters and participates in crazy blogs like this!?

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    1. I'm glad you came around, Wess!

      Sometimes I think the height of this genre is that racing of the heart. If things always work out in an author's books then that 'high' is lessened and becomes more of the mind game: how is this story going to turn around? There's nothing wrong with that at all, and it can still give a reader the charge they're looking for and also not bumming them out. I think I bummed some people out, and for that I'm sorry. I don't write from prescribed plotlines and I just go where the characters go but I try and stay as honest as I can to who they are and how they would react to the events that transpire.

      And ... I have a bad feeling about Amazon.

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    2. So are you going to continue writing or are you pretty much done? Damn that really sucks because you were saying you had plans to continue and I was looking forward to a lot more from you. :(

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    3. That would really suck...Amazon may be going the way of YouTube in sticking it to the little guy. A real shame, but I second Jeff and hope that KT finds another place to continue her writing if Amazon no longer is a viable option.

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    4. I don't really know anything about it, I can't imagine Amazon ruining the sales potential of a digital product that's so easy to distribute intentionally..They'd be shooting themselves in the foot. How important are the sales and author ranks?

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    5. I would recommend go with a Publisher... I am sure that you can get published.

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    6. Thanks for your responses, all, to my question above, and you in particular, K.T. A lot to consider, but I guess it really boils down to the reality that in cuck/dom/sub relationships (at least, the ethical, non-forced kind), it is the cuck/sub who actually has all of the power, because the relationship can't happen if they won't permit it.

      BTW, I was thinking of Amazon for doing my own erotica publishing. Can you please expand on your 'bad feeling' about them?

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    8. It's not just Amazon, in fact of all the major companies out there Amazon is surprisingly immodest. It will be all of them.

      This seems to be a reaction to a bill just passed in the senate that makes internet companies liable for even just language used on their platforms. https://gizmodo.com/senate-passes-sesta-controversial-anti-sex-trafficking-1823916411

      And its effect: https://www.hypable.com/amazon-stripping-rankings-from-romance-erotica-books-fosta-bill/

      Everything is up in the air currently for authors; and Amazon won't tell anyone what the eventual landscape will look like. They may not even know where they’re going to stop yet. Without data its hard for us to know what to do next.

      Also the NCOSE has Amazon in their scope and they successfully and with great back-patting, leveraged #metoo into moving Cosmo from Wal-Mart's checkouts, essentially censoring it and hiding it. I have more about them but refuse to link it for you on principle, ha ha.

      My books are explicit, but of course everyone is of age and everyone is game for the described activities. Consent is paramount. The only person not always entirely on board is the non-participating husband. But regardless, in an effort to protect themselves, companies now have to police their content or face possible lawsuits. It’s not fun for them. Microsoft is going through it now, policing your XBox to the point if you violate their terms in chat they may go through your cloud, even your Word documents, to make sure there isn't a pattern. It's a little frightening.

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    9. Now, technically, my books are real books, and I could edit them and have enough story and fade-to-black sex scenes that I have something still worth reading. But how viable is that? I don't even know. I have many almost-finished novels that I don't know whether or not to spend time on finishing.

      I've built up a wonderful catalog of books I love, with characters that matter. Maybe I made the mistake of writing erotica that mattered to me, and had I done more PWP (porn-without-plot) I could just say fuck it and move on and not care.

      I write other books. If we're facing a new era of censorship I'll still be a writer. I don't have to write erotica or romance. But these KTM books are one-hundred-percent my favorite. I get to explore all kinds of crazy scenarios, you guys let me take my time and build a story. Hell, RM was an erotic novel that had no sex scenes until 30k words in! I did things in these books that I'm so proud of; because they had impact, because they affected the reader. There’s, like, almost a thousand comments on RM and what?—two-percent are about sex, the rest about character motivation and plot. You guys are sincerely the fucking best.

      As for publishers: I don’t think in this day and age you need to worry about that unless you have some awesome YA blockbuster and you want access to a multi-million dollar ad-budget. There’s nothing a publisher can do for you in erotica you can’t do on your own, and you don’t have to submit a percentage and wring your hands over whether they’re being fair or doing enough to promote you. Do it yourself. And yes, I’m aware of EL James. That was an anomaly; they approached her!

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    10. And for those of you who expressed an interest in writing your own works: my advice?—it depends on what you want from the experience. If you want to challenge yourself as a writer, go on ahead and push yourself to tell compelling stories. If you’re just a fan of the work or maybe interested in the lifestyle, tell a fulfilling story just for the sheer thrill and enjoyment. But if you are interested in a full-time career in writing erotica you may have just missed the train. Maybe not, like I said, it’s all up in the air right now. There may be no more future marketplace. Write post-apocalypse or cozy mysteries with witches. Word on the street is you may want to stay away from violence as well, so tell a story about a witch who opens a bakery and solves murders that are never described (please, do not think I’m making fun of these, I’m definitely not, I love them—and they are a great break from writing about Nia getting beat up about Maria).

      I’m not giving up, so don’t construe what I’m saying as a farewell. I have almost 150k words sitting on my hard drive, waiting to come out. My only concern is beyond those books; is there going to be bookshelf space available to authors like me in the future?

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    11. Also adding: please do not share my comments, they're not for the public, just for my readers.

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    12. Well all that sure sucks. Damn that's depressing. I wish there was some way to further support you in this. I don't even live in the US to complain to my representatives.

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    13. KT - Thank you for informing us about what's going on.

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    14. kt, thanks for letting us know the lay of the land. As with the current trend toward political censorship, this version is taking a novel form. It really sucks but we will support you on whatever platform you land on.

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    15. Just wanted to say that this law can and probably will be challenged/taken to the supreme court. I forgot about this law because this congress has been just incredibly vile. I doubt that your works will be declined, nothing that you've written strikes me as something belonging in that category. We'll see though. Just keep writing and hope your stuff continues to get published.

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    16. Most likely. But it needs someone to challenge it. And in whichever way it passes its clear intent is not to quash the expression of art through erotic writers, but the effect on them will be dictated by the reaction or over-reaction by the powers-that-be. Amazon will of course want to sell, because they like to sell, but it's not just them; they have to abide by the reaction of others in their network, specifically payment processors. Who knows what will happen--it really could be a bunch of nothing. I have however, I think, devised a plan of action, that will see new work up soon, and work that I'm already pumped about, so nobody take off on me or anything, all right?

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    17. Not going anywhere! In fact I was going to say I am working on a landlord novella/story myself that is very different than yours. The good news is that I can design my own covers (graphic design & illustration ability). Anyway I'm looking forward to more! :)

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    18. KT, are you still writing as much or has this uncertainty forced you to devote your time playing out scenarios and poking around alternatives, etc.?

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    19. Still writing away, loving what I'm doing. Ranks returned today, plus other behind the scenes data. But things are still weird. Hopefully this was just a blip and all will return to normal. But, yes, I'm still writing (and editing right now).

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    20. KT, glad it hasn't hurt your willingness to write! Short of Amazon outright telling you that "everything is going back to normal, don't worry," are there certain things you still need to see from Amazon to feel comfortable staying with them?

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    21. Wouldnt it be cool if one us was the ceo or someone like that in amazon?
      2b2h you can admit it your the guy....lol

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    22. *carefully gauges KT's response*

      If I was the Amazon ceo I would totally be tilting it in KT's favor.

      Search 'Self-help' and oh I'm sorry did you mean you wanted to buy the entire 'Maggie' series?

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  25. Devotee. But I'm still pissed about Max😏

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  26. @kt, you made a couple of interesting suggestions to me here and elsewhere. Can we discuss (you will find I just signed up for your mailing list).

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  27. Rewatched Spiderman recently (the one with Toby Maguire) and Mary Jane falls in love with Spiderman and Peter Parker at the same time before knowing they're the same person. Thought that was interesting.

    What if Cole and Max were the same person the whole time??

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    1. Kind of tough to do a three way...especially if you want to turn max into a cream pie muncher.

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  28. Ok, thought I was done with the music stuff then I hear this awesome song and it's great for Maggie! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyN8bxFwuq4

    It's like the beginning of Max's relationship with Keely!

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. Since you went there..lol

      Heres one for the max and maggie lodge as they are leaving.

      https://youtu.be/J_kokTee01k

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    3. @WA, John C; Youtube serves up Boston"s Ä Man I'll Never Be"in my song list: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZxP3bMn0as

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    4. Speaking of the lodge, I'm gonna change something I said earlier about Max's weakest moment and say it was in the garage of the lodge when he was about to leave and thought "I guess this is my life now" and follows Maggie back inside. Granted, when Maggie said she loved Cole as much as she loved him, he could have said "Shoot, left my phone in the car, I'll be right back," then moved to Canada. It was basically his last chance to make a stand for himself and for the future he wanted but he backed down and became complacent.

      If he doesn't back down there, Maggie has to make a choice, actually think through her future instead of just getting everything she wants. The worst case scenario is Maggie and Cole become exclusive then and there and Max saves years of his life. Hindsight is 20/20 though

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    5. I get really mixed feelings about that i both totally agree and than not.
      Leaving would show strength in a self preservation way. But staying also shows strength in a tenaciois way.. either way could be acquiesce to the situation. He could have put his foot down and made maggie choose than the loser had to leave. Which would have been max anyway. I guess thats why i like where KT went with it.

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    6. It comes down to how Maggie can't have both her boys forever and neither one of them want to share forever. It's not that the path they took was a bad one, it did lead to Keely after all, but I think self preservation is the move at that point. I see what you're saying about tenacity, but when it matters most Max isn't capable of putting up a fight and that was the fight..likely the only moment that could have changed things. I didn't mean she would have to choose right there at the lodge; I could see Maggie going back into hibernation mode in that situation. Doesn't jump into Harvard right away, doesn't spend 6 years in an apartment with Cole (speaking of complacency). Maybe maybe not, either way I think it would have led to a more thoroughly thought out plan for the future that would have worked out better for everyone. I'm getting into hypotheticals at this point; I don't know if it would be better, I just suspect it would.

      Not criticizing KT here, I think the path the characters went and the decisions they made were in line with the characters up to that point. More just criticizing Max and how I think that garage scene was his lowest point.

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    7. A lot of my opinion comes down to how a relationship is mostly about give and take and the imbalance of those two things in Max and Maggie's relationship. Max wasn't capable of taking anything, he had to hide and keep secrets to try and get what he wanted. And it wasn't very effective at all. I just wish at some point he would have made a stand for himself and for the things he wanted and I think the garage scene was the place to do it.

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    8. Another aspect i hadnt previously considered was max had given maggie up at the ring pull. Cole recognizes it. The lodge was just a last ditch attempt to regain what he knew was lost but when cole was there that hope was dashed. The only reason he stays after that is because he still loves maggie alot and cant bare to see her suffering so commits to being the big brother/friend zoned pal. The whole "we can make it work" scene wasn't that he was still trying but that he was being the bigger man and much more wiser and human than the other two.
      He knew maggie wouldnt handle it well if he just abandoned her..
      If im repeating sorry i been distracted alot lately

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    9. I think "abandoned" is a harsh way of describing a situation where he leaves her at the lodge given the circumstances (BOO! Surprise! It's Cole!), but I think you're right about losing Maggie at the ring pull. Last ditch effort and all that. Wouldn't want our heroine to feel any discomfort, story is called Maggie after all. Okay maybe I'm criticizing KT now.

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    10. Ima stick with abandoned as the S.S. Maggie was going down by the stern.

      He decided to go down with her. Abandonment is not necessarily running away from something (in this case someone) as it is toward safety.

      I get it though he could have just gave a nod to cole a nod to Maggie then hopped a snow mobile tooled around showed some off his skills then got in his car and left.
      Kept the ring. Not to give away but to remind him what he lost and how he lost it.

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    11. Ahh, I see what you meant now. Great way to look at it but I don't think he made that decision at that particular moment, more likely some time after Maggie declined his re-proposal or maybe when she followed Cole to Harvard and Max had the occasional conjugal visit.

      The garage scene was before all that, as he was storming out after seeing that Cole was also invited. I get that Max would lose in this situation, but it was his last opportunity to make a stand for himself and for the things that he selfishly wanted just for him. He deserved that opportunity, too. Wouldn't have to be dramatic or tear inducing, the ring isn't important, just a couple sentences where he puts into words what he wants (he never does this!). His initial response was more or less just that, but it didn't satisfy me at all. The pizza scene where he agrees to be "open" is a close second.

      That's who Max is, though. In a business sense he's ice cold but emotionally he's like a dirt path pounded into slab.



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    12. I just don’t think Max was capable of leaving his two best friends at that age. Cause if he goes and never looks back, he loses both of them. Maybe it would be better if he did, but there’s no way to know for sure. And the path he took led him to Keely, who he doesn’t probably meet if he goes it alone.

      If I can into Max’s head, I think he realized in the lodge that if he forced a choice from Maggie, she was gonna pick Cole. All the evidence is there, and I think he sees it. So maybe he agrees to the open relationship as a way to “stay in the game” and maybe Maggie changes her mind over time, or maybe it’s just he can’t imagine his life without Maggie, and without Cole too, and is willing to accept his place.

      Whatever the reason, I’m OK with his choice, and don’t view him as weak or having made the wrong choice. I think a Max who just rips the cord would be worse off. He’d still have his family, but a big part of his support group would be gone. And remember, his mom gets sick shortly after the lodge. Imagine Max dealing with that and not having Maggie or Cole (or Keely) to lean on. I’m not sure how he gets through it.

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    13. Max wanted Maggie for himself, and he showed me weakness by not standing up for that.

      I think he would have been much better off ripping the cord like you said (which he doesn't necessarily need to do in this hypothetical). Gotta grow up, move on, become more than you are. Don't think you achieve that by coddling your feelings and allowing them to become stagnant as those of the people around continue to mature. Keely is great and I'm happy with the ending, but the ends don't justify the means here.

      Gonna have to disagree with you on that one (199 btw)

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    14. I just think that Max believed he was in it together with Maggie and Cole after Schroon Lake. So I look at his decision at the garage as a man convincing himself he is no longer in a monogamous relationship and beating back his jealousies and honor because of what he thought his relationship with Maggie should be.

      I think we all recognize these as possibly correct emotions but he concluded the wrong thing. Not weakness to me in that instance, just someone who's wrong about his judgment.

      I agree with everything else's points though in discussing this situation.

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  29. Just wanted to say that I gave a real good review for Size Curious Brat. Looking forward to see what the sequel brings and find it more my style than the Maggie Series. I know a lot of people here seem to like it, but I mainly read erotica to feel excitement and although I felt that with Maggie I felt the conclusion didn't reach me.

    Endings are hard to do though and often I'm not happy with most endings in general. It's true, even the ones that end like I wanted to I've found myself saying to myself, "Well you know it would have been more realistic if it ended this way."

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    1. That's fair, Jeff. The excitement is what brings us to these kinds of stories in the first place, and after a while this story became something else. More of a romance/suspense novel. The first 3 novels of this series definitely had that excitement you're talking about, though.

      Sounds to me like it's not really about the ending and more about what the focus changed to. Personally I liked the change in tone in the last few books, but I can see how the excitement fell off in that regard.

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    2. How much of our opinions about the ending can be explained by the knowledge that the story is over? I have to wonder if that plays into our impressions of it. That we reached a point at the end of a long journey that we mostly didn't want to end?

      I actually think KT is too nice to Max in this ending, not that Max deserves to be treated terribly, but in a story about Max and Maggie's relationship, why does it matter if Max finds a lover in the wake of Maggie and Cole becoming an item permanently? You can call it harsh, and it clearly is, but I say this all because there are other opinions out there.

      Initially I was a bit disappointed with the choice of the ending because of that, but I let it grow on me, and it starts to fit more and more. I even came around to the fact that Maggie would have been better off marrying Max, how's that for an about face? I still have a billion questions, but I recognize that if it isn't because of my own lack of understanding the point, it might also be because they were intentionally left dangling, because KT's novels are as much about mystery as they are about the struggle of loving someone and being kinky people.

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    3. I'd say it matters because the story is as much about Max and Maggie's relationship as it is about people growing up and learning from their mistakes. Keely is an example of Max learning from his mistakes. Didn't have to be in the form of a lover, just a level of emotional maturity that he hadn't demonstrated yet.

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    4. TBTH...for me an ending where Max is alone would have been too sad. We had grown to empathize with him, and wanted him to be happy. We can argue about the “convenience” of having him find the perfect mate in Keely, but to me it’s an act of kindness from an author who has come to love her character.

      And I’m OK with that...it’s not like it doesn’t happen in real life. We fall in love, get our hearts broken, and fall in love again. Seeing Max in pain maybe is more “realistic” but I’m not sure I needed to see it...I think we can paint a pretty good picture of what he went through in our heads.

      Also as I’ve said before I do think a characteristic of KT novellas is she leaves a lot open ended and to be interpreted as to what the future holds for her characters. I can see how that can be frustrating, but I like it because the characters stay in my head that way. If everything was wrapped up in a neat little bow, I wouldn’t be as impacted.

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    5. Two things, 1) I'm not sold on Keely being the best demonstration on Max "learning a lesson," assuming the lesson you're talking about WA is standing on his own two feet in a relationship when it's faced with difficult choices. Reasons I've said so I don't want to bore anyone repeating them.

      2) JL, I just want to make clear I don't have any qualms about my personal thoughts on the ending, which again I only brought up because it flies in a different direction of most here, which I find interesting. The ending I was thinking about is a bad one (not in quality, but in darkness). I think it'd be realistic but mostly I just enjoy the range KT plays with. Who knows what's next if Cole can win the girl?

      I've also said my general thoughts about endings a billion times, I'm really dying for a new couple to impress my own personal biases upon in the guise of offering my opinion!

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    6. No, not that exactly. More like him being capable of voicing his own wants and desires and not letting people walk all over him. Maybe that's what you meant, idk. Maybe it's not the best demonstration, but it's progress and it's a lot better than clinging to Maggie for 6 years.

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