Maggie Finale, part 4. Plus an outtake!

Here are the current results of the questionnaire on the end of the Maggie series, coming in at 30 responses. And then below that, another outtake ...


 









Cole opened the lid on his laptop and the screen came to life.

“What are you doing?” she asked him, taking some of the sheet under his duvet and covering herself with it. She lay her head next to him on a pillow, her face even with his chest.

“I wanted to show you something.”

“What?” she said as he drew up a browser window and then tapped the trackpad. It must have been a bookmark because the screen popped up on a website to what looked like the profile page on a community site. He angled the laptop on his thighs so it face her.

“What?” she said. The avatar for the profile was a side profile silhouette illustration of a raven’s head. The profile data next to the avatar had not been filled out. Spaces meant to fill in name, age, location, etc. had been left blank. Below that there was a heading that read Images, and it was vacant as well. Below that there was a heading that read Videos, and below that there were two black squares. The names below the squares read, threesome1 and threesome2. Her eyes wandered to the top of the screen finally and took in the name of the site, xrealm.

“Whats this?” she said, her eyes still darting around the screen taking it all in. Animated ads at the side showed a quick-paced scene from a porn move, a woman in a shower, showing mock surprise at discovering a young man masturbating to her while he spied through the curtain, then quick successive edits showing she was somehow aroused by the act and she was sucking his formidable cock then had a leg up on the faucet while he pummeled her from behind. Below that was an add asking if the viewer was so horny why weren’t they online right now chatting with young coeds. A midwestern girl with pigtails and a fresh smile had sent a message apparently, and she was looking to fuck, no commitments. “Wait, you want me to watch porn with you? Cole, I think—”

“No … watch …” he said, clicked the first of the two black squares, and almost instantly she was watching a video of a girl getting fucked. It was a point-of-view shot, the man doing the fucking was holding the camera. It was dark and the girl writhed underneath him, her face obscured by black, something moving in the shadows, hands gripped the girl’s waist, someone was behind her as well. It seemed—

“Fuck, Cole!” she hissed with great anger. “What the fuck is this?”

It was her. She was that girl, the man filming was Cole, the hands behind her were Max’s hands.

“It’s okay,” he said, soothing, a curve of humor in his voice. “No faces, Maggie, I swear, its anonymous.”

“Cole,” she said, her face twisted in contempt and bewilderment, eyes still glued to the screen, her mouth open, her hand paused in front of her face, covering her mouth. She was being fucked on camera and it was live on the internet and any pervert could see her. See her vagina, see her bare breasts jiggling with Cole’s thrusts.

“How could you?” she said, her eyes frozen on the screen.

“Maggie, I swear its anonymous—there’s no way to tell who it is. At all. You don’t see faces ever, not even close. You’re wearing the raven’s head. I would never upload it if you could see a face …”

“I cant believe you uploaded it even without a face. I can’t believe you even did that.”

“You’re exposed, Maggie. It’s anonymous but you’re exposed. Don’t you want to know what people think?”

“No …”

“Read the comments, Maggie. You don’t have a lot of experience, not a lot of men have been lucky enough to see you, don’t you want to know what they think?”

“No,” she said, then, “No ... what do they think?”

“Read,” he said, and he scrolled his finger along the trackpad and the screen moved enough so she could read the first comment.


Stasi379 wrote She’s so fucking hot.

Comments

  1. Interesting poll results...much more variance of opinion then I would’ve thought.

    The pornhub stuff would have been an interesting angle, but I suspect the only way it could have ended was in everyone finding out it was them. Carol, of course...ewww, we just got done with that topic, I don’t want to go back into that.

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  2. I love this!!!! For the poll I love that there was such divergence!! What does that do to your conception of your story KT? Does that validate what you're trying to do, or does it make you work harder to push things in certain directions?

    As for the pornhub stuff, I guess that proves that Maggie was never initially okay with that idea if it were to happen, but it does seem to hint that maybe she warms to the idea, with Cole's prodding and her own curiosity/badness pursuits.

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    1. It also, proves if she ever found out we were watching her with Cole and Max she would burn us alive.

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  3. Would this be an alternative to the night Maggie and Cole played some video games and had "pretend sex"? Instead of meeting up with Max and teasing/sleeping with him

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  4. Reposting from Part 3:

    While I generally agree with WA on the balance of virtue among the characters, I tend to think that the reason this story has generated so much discussion is that it is plausible after all. Many of us have gone through all or some of the events depicted by kt in this saga. The Nia/Rocco and Jess/Tyler not so much, with one or two unfortunate exceptions among this crew. And if we have not gone through it then our children have.

    Carol was on TV today, hawking her newest book about "tribal" conflict in America. She writes under the nom de plume, Amy Chua (Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom). She vehemently denied that she was the model for Carol, but doesn't deny that things turned out exactly as she had planned for Maggie -;) OK, that didn't really happen but it would have been hilarious if it did. I have a feeling Ms. Chua would have been able to hold it together even/especially (!) if she was a devotee of kt's Maggie saga.

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  5. Since we have a music crowd and there's no wrong answer when it comes to it, I have a Maggie playlist. I've got a exit song for each book and a theme song for each character.

    (tried to paste but had weirdness when I double checked it so jus going with plain text)

    "Tempting"
    "five foot two" by Guy Lombardo

    "Sharing"
    "Save the Last Dance" by Drifters

    'Secret"
    "Destination Unknown" by Missing persons

    "Exploring"
    "Go your own way" by Fleetwood Mac

    "Discovery"
    "Good Riddance" by Green day

    "Uncovering"
    "Let her go" by Passenger

    "Recovering"
    "Both sides" performed by Judy Collins
    (this one also applies to our post mortem discussions as we look at all angles of the story.
    it also can be interpreted as cynical I choose to interpret it as growth)

    Max's theme
    "Stay with me" by Sam Smith (Caveat-prior to Keely)

    Coles theme
    "One call away" by Charlie Puth

    Maggie's theme
    "Do you know where your going to" as performed by Diana Ross




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    1. I love this idea! Just listened to "Both Sides" by Judy Collins. Perfect song. Could use that song to sum up the whole story. "Let Her Go" is one of my favorite songs, although I'm a fan of electronic music and prefer this version of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpQY90M-hww

      This is great, John thank you. I don't think I'll be able to come up with a theme song for each book but I'll come back and post my theme song for each character.

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    2. Cole's theme
      "Furr" by Blitzen Trapper
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZTSriPZCQo

      Max's theme
      "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright" by Bob Dylan
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_NS9Vd1sMA
      (performed by Austin Richard)

      Maggie's Theme
      "Dear Boy" by Avicii
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcWQY9eqd84

      Keely's Theme
      "Heart sigh" by Purity Ring
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPh51zP0UhA
      (posted this one before)

      "Safe and Sound" by Capital Cities could be an alternative to Keely's theme

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    3. Thought about going with "Barbie Girl" for Maggie but thought better of it..

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    4. John, WA, excellent soundtracks. kt, should one of us open up a Maggie channel on Youtube?

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    5. Wish I knew music better to really participate, but I’ll throw a couple of old Garth Brooks songs...his classic “The Dance” for everyone. “I could have missed the pain, but I’d of had to miss...the Dance.”

      Also, “Unanswered Prayers” for Max and Keely. Sometimes not getting the thing you once desperately wanted leads you to a better thing. Little religious but it fits in their case.

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    6. @wa like dylans for max
      Problem is i could have chosen a dozen songs for each entry. Like i said earlier with music there is no wrong answer. Maybe some not exactly right ones but like beauty its in the ear of the beholder.

      @jl garth works great too.
      Could have gone with randy travis "forever" for the round up. Would have been a great wedding song too.

      Oops i forgot professor Charmichaels theme
      Toby keith "i aint as good as i once was but im as good once as i ever was"

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    8. Couple more cuz im in good ole country mood.

      Buck owens (yea that one from hee haw)
      "I got a tiger"

      Johnny paycheck
      "Dont take her,
      she's all i got" background for cole and max at the lodge.

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    9. I think Lee deserves a theme song too
      "A Comet Appears" by The Shins
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW4MmDt8joE

      Don't remember him being discussed too much. His character makes me very sad and Maggie's deposition towards him kind of seeded my dislike of her.

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    10. Also Keith
      "Signs" by Bloc Party
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yny8x4tVD9U

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    11. And June
      "Latin Quarter" by Marc Antoine
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PhRgXNbXwk

      No lyrics, just one of my favorites

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    12. All i could think about for the beckers is a plea from maggie..
      Roy rodgers "dont fence me in"

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    13. Well there's a lot here, but I really enjoyed John's theme choices, like a lot ... and WA's Maggie theme.

      I usually don't like Country as a rule, but listening to this Garth Brooks, hit me in all the feels. So JL gets mega props.

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    14. My father used to listen to country in the car when I was a kid, especially Garth Brooks. All the songs tend to sound the same, but with most genres of music there is usually something I find to like.

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    15. Father truck indoctrination is the only reason I like Christopher Cross and Fine Young Cannibals.

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    16. Same, parents always listened to country in the car. Friends in Low Places stuck with me..one of my favorites of all time

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    17. My take on the Becker theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2AxR-JbIaQ

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    18. Pops was a sinatra fan and mom was a lombardo fan my sisters on the other hand got me into janis joplin, sly and the family stone, the stones, beatles. I grew up in the kc sunshine band and fleetwood mac era.

      Don't even make me dig into my parents polka collection. Its what was done before disco kids.

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    19. Oh man i wish we had a karaoke bar we could all go to and group sing this one.
      (Promise last one )

      "Amie" by Pure Prairie League.

      Dare ya to sing it out loud and sing Maggie instead of Amie..it works.

      Im picturing max outside maggies dorm window with his band buddy (paid for) backing him up.

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    20. Dead on with that song. Singing that at a karaoke bar would be a lot of fun hahaha

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    21. KT, listen to this one, sure to make you tear up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPb9vhK3cY4

      Keep em comin' John

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  6. Maggie and the Pursuit of Love

    Love makes for some crazy shit and stupid decisions. No one should be thinking that Maggie handled how she treated Max well as she came to realize she wanted to be with Cole, but I have to give her some props to resist fucking things up further with Max in the moments after the ring grab and Schroon Lake. She had an intense growing love for the man she would eventually marry, and rather than jump full tilt into that, she waited to make things right with the man she thought she loved more. She should have broken things off with Max at Schroon Lake, that's one of her greatest blunders, but she chose to believe that love could exist for all three of them. She's mostly not wrong about that (although different types of love are what make that not wrong, and that is what matters for Max's heart). Max came to realize they were just too immature. JL said at the beginning of all this that they jumped into marriage too soon, and that proved to be true, and in the end, look what ended up happening ... Max and Maggie grew up, took some lumps, and now both have found themselves in another chapter of their life.

    There always seems to be a "... yeah, but" to every good feeling I have with KT's stories, but even with that in mind, I enjoyed this story a lot as I think more on how everything played out, more.

    Funny thought -
    I was thinking on the titles of each of the books and wondered a little bit about what made KT title them the way she had, mostly they are straight forward, but Recovering Maggie is still questionably named to me. I mostly think it makes sense, but something seemed off about it and because of that one of the weird tangential thoughts I had that didn't really work was maybe they were titled from Carol's perspective, and each story is her journey in sort of forcing Maggie to conform to her way of life.

    Tempting Maggie - come back home so Martin can get Max to work for his firm.
    Sharing Maggie - Meet and greet all the important people that will be contacts for you in the future.
    Secret Maggie - Carol has a secret on Maggie.
    Exploring Maggie - Carol just trying to feel Maggie out, "hey you know I used to be an artist." Wait that was in Discovering ... but this is the point when she comes home before that 'bombshell.'
    Discovering Maggie - She does want to be a lawyer, she just needs a little more prodding
    Uncovering Maggie - Now let's make this official by getting Cole in line.
    Recovering Maggie - She's back in the fold, forever a Becker!

    Meh, it was a funny thought though.

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    1. Interesting perspective going from tiger moms pov. Can see that happening with the beckers. Momma still had an ace up her sleeve if maggie balked too much but now that everything is settled idk what power the video would hold anymore.

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    3. Just mark it down as another of my crazy fan theories, the second relating to relatives ... I don't want to talk about the first one again ... lol.

      Third one being KT's irrational hatred for car stereos. "Want to listen to your music, Maggie?" "Sure [let's listen to orchestral music through the lovely tinny sounds of my phone speakers because your broke ass won't replace your car stereo]" but that theory's been confirmed as fact by KT herself, lol.

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    4. What maggie listened to during her 10 days oops i mean 8 days between ring pull and reunification.

      https://youtu.be/lwti4feAA6k

      I was hoping to get the actual video from the hbo series showing the string quartet Amid the rubble of a ruined bombed out city would have been a good euphemism for her life at that point.

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    5. What maggie listened to during her 10 days oops i mean 8 days between ring pull and reunification.

      https://youtu.be/lwti4feAA6k

      I was hoping to get the actual video from the hbo series showing the string quartet Amid the rubble of a ruined bombed out city would have been a good euphemism for her life at that point.

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    6. Or maybe played when she was home without the boys.

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    7. Or maybe played when she was home without the boys.

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  7. I hope the out take makes it into another story in some form or another ...it's a great idea and very realistic.

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  8. I think the majority of us have come to terms with the decisions made by our trio but 2B=2H's post about the titles got me thinking about Carol. She's still a point of contention. It goes back to the idea of perspectivism and questions whether or not her actions were ethical and I think they were, but it only works if Carol knows Maggie as well as I think she does.

    I believe that the decisions made in Tempting Maggie put Maggie on a collision course with Cole that would have inevitably lead to her choosing Cole in the end. So what did Carol do then? Well, she included Cole for a wedding planning team and told a lie in front of Maggie about being an artist in the past. That's it really, just that little nudge. The lie made Maggie question her choice of being an artist herself and bringing Cole to the church expedited things between him and Maggie and the rest is history.

    So, was that okay for Carol to do that? I think it was but like I said, only if Carol knows Maggie very well. If she doesn't, then she's fucking with her daughters relationship with her fiance in a negative way and this is the line where the infamous video could prove to be very controversial. But if she does know her very well, then she's speeding up the inevitable which I think is a good thing. Pushes Maggie towards the path that's right for her and helps Max because the earlier that truth comes to light the better.

    I think Carol is super interesting. Abrasive but undeniably brilliant. What do you guys think about her? Were her actions ethical?

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    1. WA, having ventured into these areas repeatedly in these threads I hesitate to sally forth again, so I will just summarize without all the facetious nonsense and gratuitous sexualization of Carol (insert sad face here): (1) legacy is critical to Carol, and she will zealously and ruthlessly pursue a path that promotes the legacy she desires for her and her issue. Martin is there to pay the bills; (2) Ken is a major factor here, since he is unlikely to contribute much or anything to the legacy so the family cannot afford to lose Maggie; (3) Carol was probably always hoping Maggie would outgrow Max, given Max's recalcitrance wrt the dutiful understudy role in the family and at Oxbow. Cole's appearance is a godsend; (4) Like Maggie, Carol also finds Cole hot; (5) Martin and Carol find Cole to be more likely to keep Maggie in line than Max could.

      When did the communication between Cole and Carol start? Could it have been before the visit, as Cole professed his love for Maggie and the desire that she not marry that micro-dicked Max (you like that one, WA?)? Don't say no right away, this stuff happens in the real world.

      Therefore, they start to tilt the table in Cole's favor. Knowing what is on the tapes helps Carol to shape her strategy, since she can see right away that Cole is the alpha sex god with the right stuff.

      Parents have been doing this kind of thing since forever and usually they are not good enough at it to do real damage, just a lifetime of neurosis. Carol and Martin could be exceptions and really foul up Maggies psyche, or they could be smart and perceptive enough to get what they want without producing a damaged end-product.

      But I still like the idea of the young Carol in Wanchai, Hong Kong, wrapping Dutch naval commander Martin Becker around her little finger in just his four days of shore leave. I can even see her in a skinny singlet in the un-airconditioned Tsimshatsui hotel promising to draw Martin. After all, on stage, she can sign her name with a sharpie not held by hands, feet or mouth, so she must have some artistic ability.

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    2. Wouldn't mind seeing those emails, that's for sure. Yeah, I think you're right about Carol wanting to preserve her legacy and everything else you said. I think in this case, it's okay, as her motives aligned with Maggie's. She preserved the sanity while also moving things right along; she's definitely the exception.

      Would love to learn more about her.

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    3. I will probably be repeating myself here too, but I will say this: Yes Carol is smart (brilliant, interesting), knows her daughter, etc. all the things WA mentioned. Shes so smart and knowledegable about her daughter that she never fails to berate her in savage and arguably destructive ways and rigidly controls her as her daughter makes all the same choices that she probably made when she was growing up. She can't let her daughter grow up and take her lumps given the clear path she was going? Carol stifled her daughter's growth, period. Maggie has all the potential Carol has, and Maggie was able to flourish despite her mother and father's rigidity, but who knows if Maggie could be more than she became? If Carol wanted art school to be so out of the question maybe she shouldn't have fostered a creativity/novelty suppressing environment for her child to seek such avenues.

      Without getting dark or dirty, the only reason why people would like Carol is if they appreciate parenting styles that emphasize order and security. As someone who would rather emphasize freedom and individuality, I can't stand Carol.

      Question for WA - I know we constantly disagree about Maggie, I attribute a lot of her mistakes as situational/contextual, whereas I think it's fairly clear you deem her to have clear personality deficiencies. Wouldn't that mean you would in part blame Carol? I'm just curious how you can dislike Maggie so much if she's such a reflection of her mother who seem to respect in some senses. Are you like me and see Maggie's goodness, in spite of her mother?

      I'm clearly in the minority here, but I'm alright if I never hear from Carol again.

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    4. I don't disagree with anything you're saying, maybe if her parents had fostered creativity at a younger age, Maggie would have known earlier that she didn't need to study art. Carol and Martin's parenting technique isn't the greatest, there's no way. But I read this book from Max's perspective so I'm more concerned with their romantic relationships than I am with how they were raised, and I saw a normal girl in Maggie. Maggie went to art school in defiance of her totalitarian upbringing, and I like that about her.

      I also see the good in Maggie, the kindness and the sweetness. I would say that her mistakes started out as situational/contextual, but then proved to become part of her personality. Wouldn't call it a deficiency, more like a disagreement. I think she would make a great friend, as long as I wasn't too introverted and shy for her tastes (see Sharing Maggie on the beach where Max has to insist that she interact with Lee).

      The falling out happened as Maggie continuously demonstrated to me a selfishness I can hardly describe, but it was confined to the scenes when the topic of Cole was hanging in the air (or Cole himself was there). Maybe its the combination of her own kindness mixed with the harsh rigidness of her mother that caused it, but she had Max on a noose for 4 novels (+4 years). He was tortured the entire time, so by extension so was I. I get that it was just an onslaught of situational/contextual mistakes, but at some point that's just the person you are. She could change, but she hasn't shown that to me.

      And you can see that in Carol, in how she raised Maggie. They were both just doing what felt like the right things to do and they were wrong. Carol's parenting technique resulted in socially stunted kids, but ultimately lead to successful, functional, emotionally stable adults. Maggie's mistakes resulted in an emotionally broken person, forever. And that's so much worse to me. So to answer your question, yes I blame Carol but at least she didn't do that.

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    5. Am i mistaken or wasnt cole there ahead of maggie during an unscripted visit. And all the inuendo that entails.

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    6. lol guys, Cole and Carol never hooked up! Cole met Carol and Martin on the first trip home in Sharing Maggie. Cole only inferred from Carols eyes that she may have wanted him, and Cole probably mistook Carol wanting Cole for Maggie as what he was seeing.

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    7. Wasn't what i was getting at. But if cole had been with martin or carol without Maggie or max presents an opportunity for them to plant a seed "you know maggie really likes you ...i mean really" hint hint nudge nudge.

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    8. I think Martin and Carol were disappointed with Maggie taking art at Farmingham, but had no control, other than financial. They let her go, didn't withhold money, she did well, and they were satisfied that she was giving it her all.

      She brings home boyfriend Max, they approve because he seems to have his head on his shoulders. Everything is fine until Cole becomes part of the mix, and Carol detects a relationship there, and geez, if she saw the videos...

      I wonder if Carol really saw anything in Cole, or if she let him feel it so she could control him. Carol seems like the type that might like to have a handsome young man at her beck and call, whether she wants him for the bedroom or not.

      @JohnC that's an interesting thought: how complicit was Cole? Could Max and Maggie trust him to tell the truth? They revealed all to each other, but how honest was Cole on the Native American rug?

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    9. kt, remember, it was her business to get guys to buy her watered-down drinks in that Wanchai dive. She certainly knows how to lead a man on. However, Cole was still "alive" unlike Martin and she could sense, perhaps even see, that he had the right stuff.

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    10. KT - I want to say one thing about your point above about Maggie's parents, based on how I interpret things. They might have acted like they had no control over Maggie, but they did the thing that rich parents do when their child doesn't listen, support them financially but withdraw everything else. I imagine that every day of Maggie's life was controlled when she was growing up, everything was scheduled, even her free time was probably charted. When she got to college and chose art school, they obviously allowed it, but they withdrew everything else. What does Carol do when she finds out that someone in Maggie's life is interested in the things she cares about (talking about Cole)? She sends him articles he might be interested in. What happens when Maggie finally decides to go the route her mother put forward for her? All of a sudden she wants to plan everything to help make this happen for Maggie, checks in on her to see how her studies are doing, asks her to postpone the wedding because this is an important next step for her and she wants her to make sure she's ready for that.

      That withdrawal of real substantive support from her parents at the stage of life she was in left her with a difficult choice that she needed to make, and after playing around with the idea of going her own way, she decided to fall back in line, because mom and dad made her life so miserable she barely knew how to stand on her own two feet.

      Maggie could have tried harder to leave her parents in the dust, but it's hard to feel like she accomplished that considering all of her choices.

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  9. I should probably add that I do think Carol knows Maggie very well because I think they are remarkably similar people (under the surface). They are mother and daughter, after all.

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    1. I think they are quite similar in some areas but different in others. I think Maggie’s experiences dating Max and being with the Miltons have given her an experience that Carol did not have, at least as far as we know. So Maggie has a softer touch with those closest to her, the question is whether that remains as she gets older.

      I think her relationship with her children would be fascinating. I could definitely see her becoming Carol in that respect.

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    2. Maggie makes a comment saying, "It'll be half-Cole so I'll have to watch it like a hawk!"

      Yeaaaaaaaah...

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    3. ↑This. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. But I imagine the less Max is in her life, the more aggressive Maggie will be; including the treatment of their children. Though she won't be a Carol, I imagine Carol might not be as bad as her own mother ...

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  10. You know, I completely forgot a key piece of evidence in favor of my opinion that Max is not over Maggie, that none of us have discussed (that I can remember). When Maggie and Max were talking about being pregnant, Max asked Maggie if the child was his, and was vocally upset that it couldn't possibly be! And he later suggests that Keely and him should wait to have a child of their own. Maggie even says in response to Max that she would have loved to have Max's baby. What kind of Jerry Springer world was this conversation?? That was an odd exchange that was hot to read, but did nothing to make me think Max was over Maggie (Maggie made it clear she wanted Cole's child) and everything is fine.

    What are you guys' thoughts on that? Why would Max want to be the father of the child of someone who you knew was marrying someone else, while yourself are marrying another person?

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    1. First impression
      "THAT BITCH"
      Second impression
      "THAT F,ING BITCH"
      Third impression
      Ok so shes gonna have a kid with her husband no big deal except to max.

      Max was either a little on the stupid side as he cant remember the last time he seeded the garden. 9 months minus 8 months plus x months preggers (oh... you do the math) OR
      Max was just being funny about it. Playing with red hot poker that would have been a "what if" thing.

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    2. I kind of see that as the last piece of Max’s dream falling away...even if he had long since come to the realization Maggie wasn’t his anymore, the idea of her having someone else’s child would still sting. I think KT describes it that way too.

      The “Is it mine...” stuff is just Max being wistful, and trying to inject a little humor to mask his pain. And again, I don’t see it as an all consuming pain, but it’s still there as a small part.

      Also, I think it’s the final part of the puzzle that allows Max to completely let go of Maggie and commit himself to his future with Keely.

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    3. Also, the morning after he tells Keely “we should definitely make some plans” re kids. In the bedroom the previous night, he’s still working through his feelings, and he doesn’t really know if Keely is serious.

      And I don’t think he’s doing that to “replace” something he lost with Maggie. He’s saying that cause he loves Keely and wants to have a child with her. But I know I’m more a Keely Max optimist than others so perhaps it’s what I want to see.

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    4. Sorry, one more thought. I didn’t read Max saying “I wouldn’t mind if it was mine..” as him meaning “I wish I was with Maggie over Keely...”. I just read it as him verbalizing the idea that a life with Maggie would have been OK if that’s how life had worked out. Just not the best one, for either of them. I think he knows at the end him and Maggie were not the best match for each other.

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    5. Yeah, that about sums up that scene for me. There's a paragraph that says maybe this is his best place: her best friend, sometimes lover, and that "he'd take it." Sad to read but then the balcony scene happens and you can really see him move on.

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    6. Yes, and again that balcony scene is what I’m basing being a Max/Keely optimist on...if that scene wasn’t there, or if it plays differently, I would think more like TBTH. In fact, his view was kind of my view until I really read that balcony scene again.

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    7. Yeah it's definitely suspect until the very end.

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    8. To be clear, I'm not saying that any of that conversation meant Max wanted Maggie back, that he doesn't want Keely to be with him and have his children, any of that stuff. I'm saying it's odd that he is still saying things like this, thinking things like this, if we are to believe he's over her or that he achieved that status at Maggie/Cole's honeymoon. I appreciate the perspective of you guys on it, but that kind of thought is too big to flip a switch to hear Maggie say, "No it's Cole's and I wanted it to be Cole's" and have Max conclude, "yep we're done for good." It's the kind of thing you hope is the direction he is steering himself towards, but it's the kind of thing that proves to me he wasn't there yet. And the balcony scene is far too close in time/space to that discussion for me to feel like he made it out of the woods.

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    9. Not to limit the conversation to that specific discussion, I should have said "And the balcony scene is far too close in time/space to that discussion among everything else that happened at the wedding and honeymoon for me to feel like he made it out of the woods."

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    10. I also realize I presented your argument as a strawman when I said "I appreciate the perspective of you guys on it, but that kind of thought is too big to flip a switch to hear Maggie say, "No it's Cole's and I wanted it to be Cole's" and have Max conclude, "yep we're done for good," I know there's more nuance to that, but that ending balcony scene is too close to this moment for me not to separate these two scenes as being big emotional moves. No one changes that quickly.

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    11. TBTH, I see what you’re saying...I guess I’d argue he’s not flipping a switch abruptly so much as gradually getting there over the course of the epilogue. And I think he was most of the way there in the time we don’t see. It’s the combination of things, plus his feelings for Keely, that get him to the final point. But that’s not to say there isn’t some residual feelings there for Maggie, maybe there always will be.

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    12. I think Max asking if there were any chance the baby was his was a subconscious way of reaching out to Maggie; letting her know he still misses her without saying he misses her—doing it with a tiny bit of humor.

      Max can do the math; he knows how long ago it was he last slept with Maggie and if the baby was his, her wedding dress would have to be adjusted to fit her basketball-belly. He was trying to sound innocuous and playful but they both know his words are loaded with enormous weight.

      There is something sad in that for Keely's sake: I don't think Max would be upset if he accidentally got Maggie pregnant, on the contrary, he would be elated. And while he isn't serious when he talks to Maggie about her pregnancy there is a buried truth there that I find sad.

      But I do agree, the scene on the balcony closes the door on his past with Maggie, shutting down all the love we saw between them in six books (tearing up here, ha ha). I'm mostly sad for Maggie and waiting for one of you to talk about what she lost. I dropped so many hints.

      Put it this way: Max and Keely will have a great marriage, he will become his Dad and raise the happiest kids, grow old with her and watch their children move on to happiness and independence. Maggie won't. God, tearing up again ...

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    13. KT- awesome stuff, thank you for your perspective. Now I feel like we let you down about not talking about Maggie's choice in life. I feel like a lot of us hinted at it if not mentioned it in passing but not what you meant was it? i can think of more than a few things to talk about when I'm not about for sure.

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    14. Yea i caught that and i thought someone mentioned it in another part of the blog that max was gonna be a better dad and for me i think cole would be like "ok mags you got the kids i gotta meet some fellas for 18 today with a lay over at the 19 hole." But not to worry cuz uncle Max will fulfill that daddy duty nicely.

      As for all the things she lost? Like devoted husband, someone who would have her back when she shoved back against carol, someone who would put her needs way above his own, that max would let her spread her (ahem) wings, and continue to grow. That he would support her career and be a good provider by the sweat of his own brow rather than enjoying the privilege of a wealthy family.

      Shit KT we are the ones who lost. If ahe marries Max we get a whole life time of cuckold angst to read or imagine. Lol.
      ......but i like this ending its more real and the hero doesnt always have to win. Or mostly win. To me it was a perfect ending.

      Maybe if the mood strikes you we could visit these folks for a short story. Say upon graduation of the kids or something. Find out how each has survived.
      Did they grow apart? Did Maggie accept that her husband was a philanderer?
      Did keely have a problem making babies and maggie was a surrogate? And was that child really maxs? Ewww so many possibilities.

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    15. P.S. i see in 20 years cole as over weight and balding. With bling on his fingers and around his neck while Max maintains a much healthier/sexier appeaeance. Where cole remained at his maturity level max continues to grow having that certain look that attracts the ladies to a man of inner power.

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    16. While I think more positively of Cole, John was damn well spot on on what Maggie lost.

      I was gonna start with blue streaks ... ha.

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    17. Well, it's good to know for sure that Maggie 'lost' Max and her potential future with him. Are you saying she won't have any of those things? Or just the 'grow old with Max and watch their kids grow up' part? Are you sad over the potential future she lost with Max, or will her marriage be an unhappy one? It's unclear to me..

      It is sad to imagine the potential of their future and how strong it would have been. If down the line, Cole proves to be less than the ideal husband and father then I would say "I told you so." Max's drive and ambition combined with her intellect and cunning would have been a force to be reckoned with.

      If it's all of those things, then fuck, what is there to say? At least she's rich?

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    18. Some of you think Maggie is a bitch or whatever, but man, I just think she lost this 'game.' Got set up by better players and while she is in no way going to suffer for her choices I think she lost out on something great.

      And these songs ...? Shit, it's been, what, two weeks since RM came out and my stomach is still hurting seeing what you all post. I seriously am wishing I'd brought Max and Maggie together somehow, just for my own selfish reasons. I hate this feeling...

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    19. Like, I know Maggie's language is harsh when she considers Max during her internal discourses in Tahiti, but I still feel like she cares about him and misses him. And will miss him in the future, too.

      And she took so much from the Milton family, always loved them and the sense of belonging they provided. So much so, it continued even when she wasn't romantically linked to their son. For her sake. She didn't want to lose them; she loved being a part of that. They're so kind, like Max, they allowed her in their lives even though they might know their son was hurt by her—but if Max still loved her, they still loved her.

      Maggie will miss out on that in the future. Not just the other Milton's, but making her own Milton family. Her offspring would have been cherished Milton's...

      Jesus, tearing up again...

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    20. ...my eyes were so blurry I made Miltons possessive for some reason...

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    21. My heart right now ... lol maybe if you think about the Cantarella family? What are they like?

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    22. My word, so much here since I left last night. Trying to address it all.

      On Max and his thoughts on Maggie’s baby, yes there is a part of him in that moment who wishes the baby was his. And that would be sad for Keely if he continues to hold onto these feelings. But I do believe the balcony ends those thoughts and he’s comitted to Keely.

      I suppose a pertinent question would be: if Maggie came to him in 10 years and said: “I made a huge mistake, Max. It was you, it’s always been you”...what does Max do? I think he stays with Keely, but is that because he loves Keely or is it because he’s Max and he feels obligated to keep his family together? I also think he stays because he loves Keely, but is there a part of him that would do it out of obligation? Willing to hear arguments on that.

      On to Maggie, my comments on the potential pitfalls for her and Cole was sort of my way of talking what she “lost.” She doesn’t really see it now, and maybe it never comes to fruition, but she may see it in the future. Especially as they will likely be in close contact with Max and Keely, and see how their family develops.

      Not to say that Cole will be a bad father, but the Cantarella kids are going to have a different life, and for me, probably not a better one than the Milton kids (remember the Milton kids are going to have money too, maybe as much as the Beckers, but a different and probably better perspective on what having money means.) I’m not sure if Cole and Maggie will insulate them from some of the worst traits of the Beckers. Meanwhile the Miltons will be surrounded by love and nurture on all sides.

      But sometimes that means nothing....people come from loving families all the time and screw up. And despite their upbringing, Maggie and Ken seem fine. So maybe Maggie will see nothing wrong with that environment for her kids, maybe she’ll come to see the “Milton way” as too soft.

      But I suspect there will come a moment where she sees Max with his kids, maybe despite his busy schedule he’s made time to be at something for his kids, where Cole can’t get the time off from Martin, and she’ll think...gosh that Max looks really hot right now.

      As we get older, the mind blowing sex thing gets a little less important. Not that you don’t want that, but you begin to appreciate and love the other parts of your partner more. Time will tell if Cole and Maggie have that foundation, I don’t think we know enough to know for sure.

      I’m sure I’ll be back for another swing at this later.

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    23. Also Maggie’s relationship with the Miltons was endlessly fascinating to me in that final chapter. You can see what kind of people they were by the fact they hold no ill will to her, in fact seem to love her still, even after she is no longer with Max. No idea what the Cantarellas are as in laws, but they can’t be as good as the Miltons.

      Again, these are things I suspect Maggie doesn’t fully grasp yet; after all the Miltons are still in her life. But like I said, watch out for Maggie at 35, Keely. There may be some big second thoughts then.

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    24. Finally your thoughts on whether Maggie “lost” probably relate a little to your feelings toward Cole. I’m more with TBTH in that I have a more positive feeling toward him...I don’t think he’ll be a terrible father or husband, I think he’ll do his best and be a loving dad. But I don’t think he’ll stand up to the Beckers, and there will probably come a time when his family, and Maggie, will need him to. Where we know Max would have in the same situation.

      That to me, is the essence of what Maggie lost...a life where she could hold her family’s worst impulses at arms length. Again, I’m not sure she will come to regret that, but if she does, I say again, be on guard Keely. Because for Maggie, I do think there is only one other man she would want to be with.

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    25. "She's in no way going to suffer for her choices"

      Yeah, that's what I thought. It's like whatever choice she made would have led to happiness. That's not sad at all, that's lucky!

      She didn't "lose" because she doesn't get to be a part of the Miltons family. She took something from the Miltons and can share that with her own children, project that 'something' into Cole. Redefine what it means to be a Becker/Cantarella, I would be disappointed in her if she didn't. I'm not buying into that at all. If that's the only thing she lost, then she didn't learn anything at all.

      No..she won. They all did.

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    26. I don’t disagree with that WA...maybe she can bring a little Milton to her family and none of that ever comes to pass. My hope for them is she does, cause I don’t want to imagine sad times, or regrets, for anyone here. But the beauty of the KT “grey area” is we can debate whether it would happen.

      And lol, she came in there and dropped that comment about being “sad” for Maggie, and suddenly my mind is alive again with all sorts of thoughts about these characters. Let the debate continue!

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    27. Maggie will feel regret but it will pass. You will always think about the "but what ifs" and you can choose to be mellow about those 'lost possibilities' or you can choose to take the best of those circumstances and create something even better. Like the Milton's ability to love fiercely and unconditionally, and Keely's devotion.

      Those are special things; I have to think that these characters are capable of seeing that and live happy lives because of them, not in spite of them.

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    28. Sorry im late to this party. who is more greif Stricken when mr milton passes keely or maggie? given keely had more time and contact with him but he was such a significant force of love for maggie. Accepting her even after she choose Cole.

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    29. John I can’t say one would be more than the other...I think they both take it really hard. For both, it will be like losing a father. We didn’t see any Keely/Keith interaction but no doubt they would build that kind of relationship.

      I think everyone takes that hard; good thing they have each other for comfort. But losing June was so hard for me, I don’t want to think of a world without Keith. He lives a long time and sees all his red haired, half Irish grandchildren grow up around him, and showers them with love. End of story.

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  11. Truthfully I feel the same way about the timing of the two scenes. That scene is helpful but my optimism for Max/Keely is more locked to the fact that Maggie is off the menu and won't sleep with him because she doesn't want to cheat on Cole (har har har). That and the fact that he has Keely and isn't the kind of person to live a life of reclusion and misery is what makes me optimistic. Keely is right for him, Maggie isn't, and he'll figure that shit out eventually.

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    1. Yeah and I'm good with that as the ending for sure, I mainly like talking about the doubts that can be raised by this or that scene because it's what KT does best. Doubts aren't bad things, it's just a part of life. Max is on the way, and all we can do now is hope it stays that way.

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    2. It's fun talking about these characters for any reason :)

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    3. Good way to put it TBTH...there are always moments when you doubt things...or think something else might be better. And I think KT does leave just a little bit of grey area in her endings to make these sorts of debates possible.

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    4. JL - she probably does do it intentionally at this point, lol!! No honestly, the main reason why I love it so much is grey area is what comes natural to KT. It rarely feels like she is writing this way because it's her intention to fuck with us, it's just how life is! She writes crazy fiction that withstands the test of what you know of how life is.

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  12. @KT is this how you envision max and cole handing maggie off.

    Set up:
    Max been dating keely for awhile and their affecrions have grown stronger more so because of maggies and coles schooling.

    Where he and Cole have grown back to that place they were at in the begining where cole could dunk Max in the pool or help him lift weights at the gym and talk smack over a beer afterwards.

    During one o these beerfests before max goes back to his corner of the world he finally gets it.
    And que music.....

    https://youtu.be/3R59xHUML1U

    So for the year to year and a half before the wedding. Max was primarily with keely and cole with Maggie. Each relationship bloomed in its own hemisphere. They would occasionally hook up for the random birthday halloween etc. Maybe 4 to 6 times a year.

    Even though max still has a spot in his heart for Maggie ..she was just a castle in the air....

    Ummph ima cry now.
    (Stub my toe ok)


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    1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL__XjZyThs

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    2. That song is awesome, John. I like that idea a lot.

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    3. Yea bowl of onions dats it. lol

      I think i prefer if max is the one who rips his own bandaid off or lets it fall off in the shower of love from keely. Maybe maggie thinks shes giving max some pity porks. Maybe max isnt saying no cuz he likes being close to her but hes gotta start realizing that keely probably isnt into it. Maybe that was a behind the curtain discussion between Maggie and Keely
      "Maggie i love you like a perverted sister but i need more max time when were all together."

      Didnt look this one up on youtube but
      "Diary" by bread exemplifies this and s probably alot of other stories.

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    5. ...falling off in the shower of love from Keely...? That's fucking great!

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    6. This song I heard months back when I was watching a t.v. show, made me think of our trio (now quartet) back then.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooqqj6q1MeU

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    7. This song most recently came to mind. It's goofy in that it's total electropop, but it's about people clinging to a relationship despite not really being compatible, and being too immature to know why they aren't attracted to each other anymore. At least that's my take.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV8P2maWmcU

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    8. John, that’s sort of how I view the “transition”...or whatever you want to call it. I think it was probably unspoken, but something they all realized, especially Max. And I do think that Max spent much more time with Keely than Cole and Maggie over the last 2+ years, and their “game” was only an occasional thing.

      I think Keely would have a conversation with Maggie if she felt like she needed to. But I honestly think “her Max” was pretty devoted to her most times anyway. She’s waiting out those residual feelings for Maggie to fall away, and they do I think, right into the shark infested waters above their feet on that balcony in Tahiti. Is there some symbolism having it happen right in that place?

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    9. Oh yeah, Keely isn't the kind of person to bury feelings and let them fester, she had a talk with Maggie for sure. Understands the connection Max has to Maggie, but I wouldn't be surprised if Keely herself was the one who slammed the brakes between them and insisted that Maggie never sleep with Max again.

      @ToBe=ToHave

      Great songs, I loooove MGMT

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    10. Keely very well may have had that conversation with Maggie already...perhaps it enlightens Maggie’s behavior toward Max in the hotel suite. But my guess is she hasn’t felt the need to do it yet at that point. Again, that’s up for debate though.

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    11. Yeah, maybe. Dunno for sure.

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    12. WA - I still hate that you brought up that Band of Horses song a few days back.

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  14. So how bout this scene for a new book....this book opens exactly like the last one, with Maggie walking down the aisle to a beaming Cole and Max...only this time their positions are reversed, and she’s actually marrying Max. She wakes up to the vision of her father giving Max her hand, smile on her face...then she rolls over and sees...she’s in bed with Cole...in Tahiti...on their honeymoon. We’re a few days past the last epilogue. She shakes off an odd feeling of disappointment and eventually makes her way to the kitchen...

    Where she sees...Max and Keely, talking laughing, kissing each other...the only two people they see in the world, so much so they don’t even recognize Maggie is in the room with them for a few moments. Maggie realizes it’s the first time “her Maxy” doesn’t seem to see her...and she realizes for the first time he’s not really “her Maxy” anymore. The first feelings of “What Have I Done” settle in the pit of her stomach, but she smiles at them and buries those feelings for a long time...until they resurface years later in Maggie part 2.

    I don’t really want Maggie part 2. Don’t want to put the kids and all them through that pain. But it’s a fun exercise to think about what could bring that about.

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    1. Don't even wanna think about a scenario like that..but I mean..I'd buy it the moment it comes out and read it carefully..

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    2. Yeah I don’t really want to either, but still they pop up in my mind.

      Reading KT’s comment on Maggie staying in touch with the Miltons brought another one to me. How does Maggie feel watching Keely interact with them? Imagine the scenario where she’s at a Milton family affair. Sure, they still treat her with love and caring. But it’s Keely who’s really the member of the family...Keely’s the one who Keith treats like a daughter. Keely’s the one who Max’s sister confides in now. Can imagine some pangs of regret from Maggie over that.

      Again, not to say she’ll come to completely regret her choices or want to change them. But like Max she will probably always have that “What if” in the back of her mind.

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    3. Of course... That particular regret would be Maggie's burden to carry alone. Max's 'what ifs' are more imaginary ones because, well, Maggie made the choice and not him.

      I have no doubt in my mind that we will read more about these characters to some capacity. I'd be happy with an easter egg chapter in another story. KT's the captain here..if she wants to, she could make something like this happen.

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    4. Maybe you hit on something there, WA. Maybe Max’s “what if’s” are different cause there really wasn’t anything he could do about them, only live through them and adjust. Maggie’s “what if’s” were caused by choices she ultimately made. So maybe they’re harder in a way to get over, cause she knows she could have made them happen if she chose differently.

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    5. It would have to be furthur down the road for me. Probably a year after maggie becomes an empty nester. Too much time to think about things and only cole to help sort things out. Her mind will definetly wander there. Comes under the heading
      "The grass is always greener"

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    6. It would have to be furthur down the road for me. Probably a year after maggie becomes an empty nester. Too much time to think about things and only cole to help sort things out. Her mind will definetly wander there. Comes under the heading
      "The grass is always greener"

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    7. @JL23

      Yeah..my thoughts exactly.

      I realize I've been coming off as insensitive to Maggie's 'loss' here but that's because I have a hard time even considering it a loss at all. It's an exchange of goods, a trade she conscientiously made over the course of many years. It was her choice, yes, but even then, after it was made, the consequences of that decision are out of her hands. And when that happens, it's a waste of energy to consider "what-ifs" because why bother? If we always felt that way, always considered what could have been, we would only feel sadness. In summary: she lost out on the Miltons, but look on the bright side because the other side isn't worth thinking about.

      That being said, if Maggie does "turn the corner" in either your or John's scenario, it's not like it would be out of character for her to go after Max and I wouldn't mind reading about it..

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    8. It’s a really complicated stew of emotions. I guess we focused all our energy on Max though. It’s much the same for Maggie too. Again I don’t necessarily think she does, or would come to regret her choices. She will still likely have a great life with Cole and the family they create.

      But there is still a “loss” in the sense that a great life she could have had with Max will not come to pass. Just like Max has to grieve his “loss” of Maggie, she probably has to come to terms with her “loss” of Max. And I agree with KT, I think a part of her does still love him, and probably always will.

      And to speculate in the future, maybe she senses that while Cole is the better sexual partner for her, maybe Max would end up being the better life partner. Kind of like what biologists say, that women may subconsciously look for one type of partner to mate with, but another type of partner to raise those same kids with. So a Max type nurturer may look more attractive to Maggie as she raises kids and wants those characteristics passed down to them.

      But again, who knows. I just think this story is classic KT. It’s a happy ending, but enough room to question the decisions of all involved and whether it’s a lasting happiness. Kind of like life.

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    9. That's what I was getting at, they will both grieve then they will move on. The "lasting happiness" you talk about and its mystery, I mainly attribute to Cole and Maggie. I think if this lasting happiness is interrupted somehow, it will be becomes of them. And it would disrupt Max and Keely's happiness, which would suck (but would be fun to read about).

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    10. I agree if there was a Maggie part 2...that would be the story. It would be Maggie and Max perhaps wanting to be together, and how it would impact all their lives.

      Since I don’t think something like that will happen...my thought on it: Perhaps in a drunken moment of “truth” years down the road, Maggie would confess having feelings like that to Max. And Max ultimately would say...”it’s too late to think like that”...they would laugh about it and move on with their lives.

      The Max I think I know would not blow up his life to chase Maggie, and he would by then be totally in love with Keely and the life he had. But as a bitter clinger myself I know it would be a fun read to see what he’d do.

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    11. If you look at the timelines, Max has been with Keely the same amount of time he was with Maggie before she chose the threesome arrangement. His relationship with her along the way would be more stable, too. Moving years into the future, Max would have years of experience beyond what he had with Maggie. That would seem like a small painful blip in time, but one where he learned much about himself. It may have importance to him, but renewing a relationship when he's built so much with Keely...? Like, if they had kids...? You think Papa Milton ever cheated on his June-bug? No way. Max wouldn't either. Play time sure, but hurting his Keely's heart, endangering his children's family stability? The further they get from the honeymoon in Tahiti, the less Maggie's power over him; even if Cole should exit the picture...

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    12. 100% to what KT said...Max would never cheat on Keely...no way, no how. And I know others think differently, but I don’t really think Maggie or Cole would stray either.

      I just could see those weak moments where Maggie looks wistfully at Max with his kids and thinks “what if.” Maybe even more than Max would look at Maggie that way. But neither of them do anything about it. Like WA said it’s a part of your life you look back at fondly but you move on.

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    13. I'll be looking forward to that easter egg then ;)

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  15. Thanks for all the video links. I was worried when I saw Otis Redding on 2B's link, worried it was Don't Miss Your Water and it would send me down that Quarry mudhole I was in last winter. It was still pretty harsh. (That was the song from the record Quarry's record that his wife loaned to her lover)

    However, watching all those songs had Youtube's masterful algorithms suggesting this gem to me:
    https://youtu.be/58hHVlZCfvM

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    1. "Press it, print it, ship it" LOL

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    2. KT - I forgot about the Otis Redding - Quarry connection!

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    3. If I were Cole, I wouldn’t be working under a car in the presence of Max...you know, just to be safe.

      Too bad there’s no season 2 of Quarry coming...

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  16. This song does a great job of voicing my feelings on the ending of this story:

    "Down River" by The Temper Trap

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGdyRihp1Qg

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    1. WTF it's like all my favorite songs are talking about this damn story! When will it stop??

      Bastille - Pompeii https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m326LNIRB3k

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  17. Since we had a penis song ...well done KT ..that sunmed everything up nicely..
    Heres one for the begining.

    https://youtu.be/5v0T0Z_uiGA

    Cole or max (or shh maybe jessie)?

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    1. WA, John, The lords of YouTube put Avicii's "Dear Boy" in this recommendation thread.

      Query for those few of you not fans of Cole (and Maggie): will Keely go along with Max's bankrupting and buyout of Oxbow or will she tell Max that vindictiveness is not becoming; he should focus on Blackrock instead ;)

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    2. For the record i dont think maggie was a bitch or cole a dick. I do think they did bad things to max but max could gave showed up at any moment and said forcefully "enough!".

      With that out of the way.
      If max has the chance to take over oxbow. I think keely would be like "if you are going to do that be sure that maggie and cole are taken care of ..make cole president head legal counsel or some other high level job." Sorry martin you're out.

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    3. One more thought us it could promote some hero worship out of maggie.

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    5. I just don’t see Max as that guy...I don’t think he’s motivated by a blinding sense of revenge against Martin or Carol. If in some universe Max’s firm took over Oxbow I’m sure everyone would be taken care of.

      The more likely scenario in my mind...Max branches off on his own, maybe creates his own fund, and tries to get Cole to leave Oxbow and join him. How does everyone react to something like that? Well, I have ideas, but more on that later.

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    6. Yea i think by the time this occurs enough time has past that any ill feelings have long burnt themselves out. I see max and cole going on weekend deep sea fishing trips on maxs cabin crusier or sailing to the bahamas on coles sailboat. So an opportunity for them to work together is not unusual or unexpected.
      Or if maxs is very business minded he may decide Cole to be a bad business investment. In the DON
      Scenario why would i hire or keep on someone from oxbow that is about to be bought up. If not for keely.

      In your scenario max would have to review his history with cole. What kind of businessman or lawyer is cole is he reall going to be an asset or a hinderance. Max would have go think about all his other employees and make a wise decision. Which i think he would probably not bring cole in. Its business not personal.

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    7. For those of us in the other camp (WA, that you?) the impetus for Max's strategery will be (1) Max is not exactly the most straightforward guy around, a real benefit on Wall St; (2) he still carries some torch for Maggie, and (3) Cole will remain in character and at some point will either wave the victory over Max in his face or make a move on Keely for entirely gratuitous reasons. Cole's not gonna be CEO of the reorganized Oxbow. We have Putin's niece for that job, after she pulls a pump and dump on Cole and Oxbow shares, in that order.

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    8. Maybe under the right circumstance, but I think Max has taken his share of lumps. Also that situation (Max CEO of his own firm, Cole continuing to flop around where Oxbow takes him), Max would be the head honcho of the group. Not quite the same as when they were all equals..

      Leaning towards John's scenario where Max is the cold, calculated businessman who sees Cole as he is. Takes Maggie from Max but lives the rest of his life in his shadow.

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  18. kt and the rest of the bitter clingers on this thread: did any of you devote this much effort to analyzing "Beowulf," or "Paradise Lost," or "Twelfth Night" when you were studying English lit? It is a true compliment to it's ability to summon interesting characters that we could so do.

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    1. Tapping my thorton melon.
      "Saw the movie great cgi."

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    2. They never had this level of analysis in the Cliff Notes I read to understand those novels. And yeah, the sex scenes help.

      Lol John at quoting one of my favorite movies of all time. Here, take a pen for that reference. Oh wait, I’m out of pens...here take a calendar instead.

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    3. Sorry off topic
      @Jl23 Yea one of my favorite Rodney quotes.
      "Last time i seen a mouth like that it had a hook in it"

      From BTS
      "She was an water sign i was a earth sign together we made mud"

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    4. Sorry off topic
      @Jl23 Yea one of my favorite Rodney quotes.
      "Last time i seen a mouth like that it had a hook in it"

      From BTS
      "She was an water sign i was a earth sign together we made mud"

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    5. Yes, I did—although I also perked up during the racier books. But boy, do I absolutely love that I can make something that holds one's interest. I love that this book is real to some people.

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    6. “You want to talk about class. Here’s a picture of you and Giorgio in the kitchen...real classy. Here’s you and Giorgio in the rumpus room, another classy one. This one I don’t get...there’s you, there’s Giorgio...what’s with the midget?”

      I could go all day with Rodney quotes. He was the best.

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    7. kt's thanks to us for all this discussion, music vids, and story line suggestions is to send some of us off on a 10-hour wild goose chase. You would know it as "Quarry" and I missed that show first time around. Not sure why, it was my generation and some of my experience, and I'm fatally hooked;) Thank you, kt.

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    8. I have to upgrade my hulu to get quarry so ill catch up with it later.

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    9. Sorry still off topic
      @JL yea i miss rodneys wit.

      Another movie forget which , the son was building a airplane model of a german ww2 109 fighter.
      Rodney looks at ths table
      Tells the son "clean this messerschmitt up"

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    10. Easy Money...underrated Rodney movie. I could spend all day quoting Caddyshack and Back To School, but I’ll spare everyone.

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    11. @Donkatsu Do you mean you went and binged it? I loved it so hard—did you witness my meltdown over the cheating wife?— http://sparrow3dx.blogspot.com/2017/01/powerful-jodi-balfour.html . I'm almost glad it isn't coming back because I don't know why, but that cheating wife dug at me.

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    12. Rodney Dangerfield quotes are always welcome here.

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    13. kt, just read it over there. No question, she's a doll, and plays the infidelity out complexly and she is endearing. Never faced quite that situation but I hope I could forgive her; she is so wonderful to look at, she has passion (and a nice body), some sense of truth. Not making any sense here, time to dive back in.

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    14. War is a terrible thing, and sometimes it makes us do terrible things. Both those that serve, and the people they leave behind. You’re probably right though...maybe one season was best for that show.

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    15. I've never cared as much about literature than I have about this author. Evidenced by the fact that I know, to the minute, when a book is being released. I used to think there was something wrong with that, but now I'm convinced it's because she truly represents this arm of romantic longing and exploration of societal norms and morality that fills an important void for me.

      Obviously, there's a certain biological appeal to these stories that is difficult to disentangle from the themes so contained.

      Real talk.

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  19. kt's, thank you, autocorrect.

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  20. Sure, it doesn't hurt that the sex was good, in Beowulf not so much.

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    1. Max Keely are Maly...just because it rolls off the tongue and is a good shipper name. I’m all in on Maly.

      Maggie Cole are Mole...because Cole was the secret mole Carol planted to break up Max/Maggie...just kidding, mostly.

      But I’m all in on Max and Keely’s first daughter being named June. Not sure what Maggie and Cole name a daughter...I don’t think she gets the name Carol though. Maybe Cole’s mother then, with June as a middle name. I’m picturing Carol’s disgust and smiling at it...a little battle Maggie can still win over her mother.

      For boys, there will be a Max Milton Jr. in there (Keely will insist on having another Maxy in her life). Again, less clear what the Cantarella boy would be...maybe Cole Jr I guess.

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    3. Lol maggie names first boy max and so does keely
      Very Dr Seusian. Max one and Max too.

      Yea like "Mole" maybe the nickname carol bestows. Nah she wouldnt be that mean although i had a step mother who called me bad luck and cursed me as evil. Probably because our first meeting occured the same time of a nearby oil farm explosion and fire ....supersticious woman. Oey!

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  23. Maggie's Journey Back to Square One

    Big surprise, I seem to have made it a habit after this book was released of being a day late and a dollar short, as it appears that the conversation has once again shifted, and all I'm doing is obsessing about something KT said last night ... That of "what did Maggie lose?"

    And it's not pretty.

    About a week ago I asked KT why she would make Cole like Martin, and it was coming from a place admittedly looking for a piece of confirmation. That Maggie and Cole's story is about history being repeated. I won't delve too much into that particular thought, but I think it bleeds into a tragedy that I am coming to terms with in Maggie's journey. Maggie's regression.

    When I think about why Maggie started down this journey of self-discovery, it was to become experienced and come out of her shell, to no longer be ashamed of who she was as a woman. I would like to think she accomplished that on paper, when we take together all of the experiences she had during the course of this story. But now I'm starting to wonder if all her journey did was strip away the independence she was starting to believe in herself, and instead, forget any of it mattered.

    What does Cole really represent in this story? I've always sort of buried the Martin/Cole parallels because the reality is we are attracted to opposite sex characteristics based largely on the positive traits we find in our own families/immediate social circles, so yes Martin and Cole are of course similar. However, as KT mentioned, Cole picked up on Maggie's kink and gave her the 'daddy' treatment. Why does this appeal to Maggie? I used to be content with just her tapping into a kink that is distinguishable from her day-to-day personality. Now when I look back at why she wanted that given that she was trying to find independence, I am now skeptical any of it represented her wanting to explore a kink. She was finding relief from Cole in those moments because she was being taught a lesson that Max was teaching her the wrong thing by letting her become truly independent. Such an on the nose example of this is the "I don't want to be bad" "Forbid me" talk to Cole in 'Discovering.' Her sexual journey became co-opted like any self-made, independent product trying to make it's way into the very corporate dominated world we live in. Cole represented the status quo, and she let that allure wash over her until she became a sell out. Cole didn't represent a figure that helped take her out of her shell. That was Max. Cole put her back in it.

    Anyone like a little unsubstantiated psychobabble?? How about Erich Fromm!? Erich Fromm was a psychoanalyst who wrote a book called 'Escape From Freedom' it's a depressing, but interesting piece of 'non-fiction.' Basically the contention is that people have a few choices in life, they can 1) accept that they are truly individual and try to make their own way in life (healthy choice), which is fraught with risk and dangers, or you can take two paths (there might be more I've forgotten at this point) 2) subordinate yourself to some particular set of rules or 3) Become the ruler, establish your own domain over someone else to feel better about your own fear of the unknown.

    I think Maggie took the 2nd route. The (buzzword alert, but this is the actual term he uses) masochistic route. Maggie cut her blue streaks out, started dressing more conservatively, became more interested in a man that embodied the male father figure that she was accustomed to, allowed this man to tell her she should stop the path of sexual (read: personal) growth that she was traveling, and started listening to Mom and Dad's wishes again.

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    1. Continued ...

      It's not Max's fault, but he could have helped Maggie figure this out if he was, himself, more mature. If he was meant to be with her, then he should have helped Maggie realize all she was doing was trekking down the path of least resistance put forward by Maggie's parents. Cole is a good man, I think it makes sense for Max to feel like Maggie made the right choice for herself, but he never confronted her on why Cole? He didn't do enough to stand up for the part of her that wanted to be different, the type of Maggie that would stay by his side. To be fair, how could he know for sure that this was happening to her? On the surface, all of the decisions she made would make sense, even if all she seemed to be doing was following a path that included Cole. When Ken asked Maggie if she was going to Harvard for herself, it was meant to be an accusation of doing it for Cole, but really she was doing it for her parents.

      Like has been said, this is not the worst thing in the world. Maggie and Cole are a good couple, and I genuinely think Cole is a good person. Unfortunately, I now think that Maggie is 'happy' with Cole because it makes life easier on her to do what she had been raised to do, not because she will be truly be happy with the man that Cole is. I now think that she'll realize that she married Cole because of what the tie he puts on reminds her of, and will gradually realize that she never married Cole because of who he really is. That won't necessarily mean divorce, it might not even mean she won't fall in love with him again for the right reasons (I still contend that Cole is a good person who truly loves her and I like to think Maggie does too), but I think we all know that she married for the wrong reasons.

      I give KT mega props if this was at all her intentions, because this is a very real relationship. I won't bore you all again with my 'OMG IT'S LIKE SHE KNOWS WHAT REAL LIFE IS!!" schtick, but it's refreshing to read fiction that could teach a cautionary tale like this.

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    2. TBTH...lot of interesting thoughts there as always. I agree with a lot on Maggie...I’m not necessarily sure I would say she married for the wrong reasons, but I don’t believe she fully grasps the reasons she did pick Cole.

      And I like that idea of Escape From Freedom...sometimes we’re scared to actually break free and create our own life, so we create a sense of control over our lives and act like that is real freedom. Is Maggie doing that? I would say a little bit yes.

      On Max, he is just not mature enough at the point all this happens, or as in touch with what he wanted, to make any of those connections. If this happened to them at the end of the epilogue, when he’s 26...then maybe. But maybe he’s still not in touch with his feelings and confident enough then either. Maybe he had to go through this, the loss of Maggie and all that entailed, to be the truly free man I think he is at the end of this...free to build his life with Keely without any restraints.

      I just have come to think it was destined to be this way. Max and Maggie were never meant to be with each other. And probably both are better off for that, although my ramblings especially today would tell you I’m less sure that’s the case for Maggie than it is for Max.

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    3. Bravo..very well summarized. An argument could be made that she chose "option 3" because Cole was the easier route and I get the impression that outside the bedroom (and sometimes in the bedroom), Maggie is the one in charge, but it's close, maybe both.

      I never thought about it like that, but in the macro sense it's hard to deny. All of those options can seem like the right path under certain circumstances, it's almost impossible to break it down for an individual and say which is best. Most of it is subconscious, micro decision making that individually don't impact anything but as a whole, you can certainly see the patterns.

      And for Maggie's sake, I think you're right that she divulged from the path that she was on, the path that was right for her. And the worst part is she doesn't even know.

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    4. For me its all on a timeline.
      Makes moves on with keely. He learns things like you have to fight for this but give up on that. In so doing learns that if he had fought harder may have had maggie on the first go around. Cole will come to realize that having terrible slutty maggie that it will eventually wear out. especially with the kids around. So there will be the typical sexual fall off after say the seven year itch kicks in. What then? Does he wander? I think so. Does maggie get hurt? sure she does she banked it all on Cole and even one time he breaks his vow. Will be total disaster for maggie. What if Max finds out that cole messed around on her. Does he snitch? Does he condem Cole? Or just mind his and Keelys own business.

      I think Max lucked into Keely and she him. I think she will be his north star and guide him in their private life where max will take care of business end of it(he got her a freaking boat).

      I mentioned earlier i think Max will continue to grow and mature. Where Cole is at a point where life is good so why bother.

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    6. Even though it's harder as you get older, her future is still not written in the stars. She can still come to that realization and become the person she was meant to be. Whether or not that includes Cole (she could bring him with her) is up to her.

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    7. Duh my opening paragraph for above
      @2b2h that's a smorgasbord of food for though in there....and excellent points. Agree on 2) .
      That also on a timeline Cole and Maggie were closer to each other than max and maggie at least emotionally. Later in life the opposite will be true.

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    8. Means i peg Cole on 3) of tbth list.

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    9. I think Cole is better represented by #2 on this list. I feel like his path through life couldn't have been more streamlined.

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    10. Means i peg Cole on 3) of tbth list.

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    11. I didn't realize you guys would be debating the elements of Erich Fromm's Escape from Freedom! I wish I remembered it better, I may have gotten the specific titling of the types of choices we can make as individuals, but the two divergences from being freely individual are correct, but they might be two sides of the same coin, which I think you guys are already figuring out.

      Erich Fromm was a Jewish person during the age of Nazism, so a lot of his work was trying to understand Hitler and why people would listen to them and subjugate an entire population of people. Really an interesting read if you're into the cross-section between psychology and society.

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    12. I'm not really thinking about those elements in terms of sex, more like everything as a whole. Maybe Maggie's exploration of her own sexualization will hit a brick wall with Cole and stifle it's "freedom" but that doesn't have to stifle the other things..like freedom from her parents control, freedom to feel confident as a woman, as a business-woman, etc. And maybe that's all she needed to explore with Max/Cole, but you're touching on a much bigger effect that might impact the other areas of her life that are more important. The signs are definitely there, will she spot them? But most importantly, if she does spot them, does she even care?

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    13. @WA - I didn't think you were limiting your thought just to sex, by the way! It's difficult not to cross paths with thinking about BDSM when talking about Fromm given the colloquial use of the terms Sadism and Masochism. Erich Fromm refers to Masochism as the willingness to subordinate one's self to a set of rules in order to 'escape from freedom' and Sadism as willingness to subordinate people in order 'escape from freedom.'

      The complexities of this situation is that by escaping from freedom, you can actually feel confident in what you're doing, because you have everything "figured out for you." You just have to go and do it! It's easier to feel more self-doubt when you go the route of being truly independent, because you're on your own and everyone is paying attention to your mistakes and player hating on the fact that you're trying to do things differently. Easier to just fall in line and let culture and history repeat itself.

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    14. Yeah, sounds like a confusing read. What does it even mean to have true freedom? Would you label Max as option 1 or 3? Maybe he's more financially independent because he's ventured on his own but it's into a line of business that's established, with rules and precedent to follow. I mean, I can't say, can you?

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    15. It's hard to deny that his philosophy is true (or at least riddled with truths), but how do you translate something like that into more modern situations? It's not quite as easy to think about in the context of Maggie and Max compared to Hitler and WW2...

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    16. Well admittedly, i was assuming Max is independent, at least bt the end of the book. Someone trying to make a name for himself and doing things legitimately, and as it relates to relationships, treats people with respect. Trutb be told looking back at some cliff notes versions of the book lol, I'm referring to one form of 'escaping freedom' relating to authoritarianism. If you guys want to talk about it, lol, there are two others ... destructivism and automaton conformity.

      As any social construct will tell you, as WA correctly points out, we're never one thing, we're all too complex.to be one thing. And that's if the social construct is actually scientifically verifiable! I don't think Fromm's concepts went anywhere besides get people to start thinking about how individual psychology effects society.

      What were we talking about before? lol

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    17. You said Maggie switched paths like it was a bad thing. Do you really think so? If the basic idea is you just find the path that is right for you, then maybe it was Max that was driving her down the wrong path and Cole was the one who set her straight.

      It's clear that the truly independent route is the most desirable but so few people can actually follow it, and Maggie showed signs of following it, but does she was also young and in college. Does does that mean it was the right path for her? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something..

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    18. Yeah this kind of talk is beyond my pay grade...is anybody purely free?No, I don’t think so. Even our choices, though made in free will, are usually impacted by how they would impact those we love. Max for instance, will make decisions in his life that are for the betterment of his family rather than solely his own.

      So he doesn’t have pure freedom I think, just perhaps a higher degree of freedom than a Cole (or a Maggie) might.

      Not sure what any of that means for happiness though. Isn’t pure freedom being alone and not worrying about the impact your decisions will have on others? Is that necessarily a good thing, to not be tied down by anybody...to not have an impact on anyone else’s life. Pure freedom sounds kind of sad and lonely to me then.

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    19. Well I think the path should always be independence, and you make an important point (admittedly Im thinking in a different direction than you were intending) in asserting that Max might have not necessarily been helping her down her path of independence.

      It's also true that maybe she was just always destined to be a lawyer, it's in her blood, all that stuff. I just think it's really telling that the minute she escapes the clutches of her parents at Farmingham, she goes the art school route, gets the look she wants, meets a fun loving guy like Max.

      There's something there that says she wanted something different, but it was too difficult for her to go after and she gave in to her parent's demands.

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    20. The above was directed to WA.

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    21. @JL23 I'm assuming that "true freedom" is more about making decisions that bring you happiness that might be turned down by an oppressor. So those decisions could be decisions made for those you love because their happiness is your own happiness. But I haven't actually read the book so I could be wrong.

      @ToBe=ToHave
      So, am I right in assuming that all of this is related to personally happiness? Are you saying Maggie would be her happiest if she never steered off from her original path at Farminghand?

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    22. WA I should really stop talking about Fromm. What i' m saying is that Maggie was on a path towards finding her way, had a crisis and fell back in line. I do not contend that she was necessarily succeeding before this book in finding herself, but she was trying. And through no help of her parents, only her boyfriend Max.

      I don't know is happiness necessarily has to do with Fromm, but independence generally leads to genuine happiness.

      Then again, people that have been convincing themselves that they have everything figured out are probably pretty happy too. I could go into examples of delusions or at least presumptions but I don't want to offend peoplr.

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    23. Maybe Maggie lives a “happier” life with Max and away from the life her parents laid out for her. But I think that’s discounting the very real things Cole gives her that Max cannot. I still submit that she didn’t choose Cole because she’s choosing to give into her parents’ demands of her. It’s just the unfortunate side effect of her own desire to be with him.

      Maybe there isn’t a “perfectly happy” choice for Maggie. Neither choice could give her everything she wanted. Where for Max, I think in the end there was a perfectly happy choice with Keely. So I guess, another reason to maybe look at Maggie as the ultimately “tragic” figure here, not Max.

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    24. JL- I want to believe that's true. I'll feel better about it if you can answer these questions ...
      1) Why are Carol and Martin and Cole and Maggie so similar as people?
      2) Why does Maggie get off on 'daddy' talk with Cole who looks like her father?
      3) Why does Maggie automatically pick law school when the going gets tough for her? She could go to Harvard for anything she is smart enough. Instead she chose the exact profession of her mother.

      I find that too difficult for me to think she would have chosen the life she did out of her own completely genuine volition, but it's true that life is never that simple, and people need to figure out how to make a living.

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    25. Ok, I'm starting to catch on. I had to read a summary on the wikipedia page for the book, but I think I'm getting there. It calls true freedom "the freedom to employ spontaneously the total integrated personality in creative acts."

      Basically Maggie was on this path to her true "self," the version of herself that makes decisions because of her own volitions, unrestricted by her parents and people like Cole, and Max facilitated that and Cole didn't. It also mentions how the alternative to true freedom is to surrender to an authority (or the other things, I guess). So yeah, in that sense, Maggie "regressed" to surrendering to her parents and to Cole. It's really not about happiness, it's just freedom/control over your life.

      I'm gonna have to think about this, this is some heavy shit.

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    26. In relating this to what KT said yesterday my conclusion to all this drivel is Maggie lost her independence and the man/family that could help support that of her going forward.

      Shit got real ...

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    27. @2B: Girls marry their fathers all the time. At my wedding several people remarked about how similar I was to my father in law despite our being of different races.

      @kt: can see how Quarry became an obsession for you. Nia sticking with Rocco after she realized that he beat the crap out of the poor stripper guy is nothing compared to Jodi staying with Mac even after she finds out he is a contract killer, including her lover. And besides, we really do not want her to leave.

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    28. TBTH I think it would be naive for me to say those factors didn’t play a role in her choice of Cole. I guess maybe the better way for me to put it is I don’t think they played the primary role. And I don’t think we can forget that if she chose Max, I don’t know if it was necessarily a path of wine and roses either. Maybe she’s really choosing him to rebel against her parents and their vision for her.

      Like I said a ways back, it’s a complicated stew of emotions with Maggie. I really don’t know what the best answer is for her...I really don’t. So I find that kind of sad for her.

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    29. Last thing for the night, I just want to say to JL you're very right that no one can be truly independent, all this talk about individuality fails when it comes to relationships. We need each other and in order to be with another we have to meet each other at some level. Just wanted to point out JL's great logic.

      And also, my point about Cole being like Martin, it isn't that he necessarily is like Martin, but that she subconsciously wants him to be like her father. And yeah, relationships are generally like that, but that something is common isnt necessarily a good thing. I think it mostly makes sense and it's even okay. Maybe it's because I just don't like Martin and Carol? Haha.

      Thanks for humoring my opinions, it was one that I realized I was stewing on for a few books and got some key triggers l that made me think to run with it.

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    30. This is really tricky to think about... It's like you have to consider every decision and whether or not that particular decision was influenced by this philosophy or not. It's a little of this, a little of that.

      We know that Maggie doesn't want to be an artist now and that she's going to work for Google, so in that regard she still seems to be in control.

      It's when you add in a second person and try to make the philosophy work that my brain starts to spin on its wheels. Cole is someone their parents would want her to marry, but she also loves him. How does love factor in?

      I don't think her being attracted and falling for a man who is similar to her father is evidence of path 2 because love fucks it all up.

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    31. This is super interesting and I'd love to add more than that but at this point I'm just typing out paragraphs and deleting them over and over again.

      Yeah, I like the way you summarized it, no need to add on to what I said.

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    32. Oh no, is love a form of oppression? Oh no oh no oh no oh no

      alright I'm gonna go play video games

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    33. You know, maybe it's just a natural progression to cover if you've gone down this rabbit hole of thought, in discussing individuality and relationships. But Fromm wrote a book calles "Art of Loving" some years later, which I also read but can't tell you a thing about. That's probably because it was boring and/or I was too immature to be interested in it.

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    34. Did I ruin it? My gmail isn't blowing up today with people's thoughts ... lol

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    35. Nah, I think you're right I'm just not sure what that means for Maggie and if it's even a bad thing or not. Also having a philosophically induced breakdown mental breakdown of sorts

      When I think about it, I spot myself cheating and forcing things to fit together because of "love makes everything fine." It's a loop that always ends with the question, "Is this the best thing for Maggie?" and then I start over.

      Mostly I'm considering Cole, because from what I can tell, he's the one that fell into the Becker trap willingly, not Maggie so much. And I'm not sure how that effects Maggie.

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    36. Really interesting thoughts which are appreciated and I can see as true, WA! Good I'm glad I didn't turn people off, but to be clear I mean thoughts in general, not just the vein that we're talking about.

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    37. Well that's what I'm thinking about lol

      I'd also add that Maggie discovered she didn't want to be an artist (delayed by her parents) and is now working for Google. Decisions she gives up to her parents in the future are unknown.

      So if I had to summarize my thoughts, I'd say that while Maggie switched paths several times, I think she did find her way back to path 1 and Cole is the one who fell into path 2. Which is fine, because most people aren't like Max or Maggie. It's romantic in a way.

      But things can change on a dime, and my reasoning is shaky at best, so what do I know?

      It's fun to think about for sure. I'm sure I'll hear a song later and it'll remind me of something and I'll post about it lol

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    38. Yeah I think I agree with the idea that Cole might be the one who fell into the Becker’s “trap” if you want to call it that. I just think Maggie found her “inner Carol” and discovered she liked parts of it. I don’t sense she regrets, or will regret, the choice to be a lawyer and work for Google, or the choice to be with Cole. I do think those were conscious choices on her part, even if they were put in front of her by her mother’s machinations.

      As for Cole, I think if you asked him he wouldn’t even care that he was manipulated. He loves Maggie, and likes his life. I don’t sense he’s ambitious and looking to break free, maybe he’ll be happy just being a cog in the Oxbow wheel. And for what it’s worth, there isn’t anything wrong with that. It’s a good job, and not everyone is cut out for stardom.

      So maybe I’m back to thinking it will be fine between them. The key for me will be whether Maggie can do what WA says, and bring the best parts of life she learned from the Miltons to her inner Carol. Because there are benefits to living like Carol, so long as you don’t completely lose your empathy and humanity.

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    39. Cole is where it starts to get tricky because I do believe he is capable of being of more than Martin's lackey but it's hard to equate that into what true freedom is because he is also unambitious and is doing it because it's easy. And because he loves Maggie and it pleases her parents which makes it easier to be a part of her life. So if that's what he wants, maybe he's also path 1? I think it's a mixed bag, I think they all are except maybe Max.

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    40. I like the dichotomy of Cole and Max. Cole is an alpha in the bedroom and a beta in life. Max is the opposite...I do believe humans can be both at the same time, so it feels real to me.

      My worry for Cole is how does Maggie respond to him being rather unambitious? Does she appreciate that, or does the “inner Carol” come to resent him for it? I could see it going either way.

      So I guess in response to KT’s question that set all this off yesterday: did Maggie “lose?”...yes she lost Max, and that is a big loss. But I think they both landed in the most perfect situation they could. Maybe Max more so than Maggie, but I still feel they both are with the right people for them.

      I also don’t think KT was posing that question because she regrets the decision to put Cole and Maggie together...I just think there’s sadness because she didn’t figure out a way to put 2 characters she loves together at the end. But there are always “alternate endings”...maybe devising a way to put Maggie and Max together would be an interesting “Easter egg.”

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    41. I like JL's take a lot, I hope it to be true. I want to think that Maggie made all of her choices on her own terms, and she found some truly enlightened middle ground between her dominant and influential parents and their undeniable influence on her, and the compassionate, liberated mindset that Maggie demonstrated so many times in this journey.

      I'd be lying if I didn't think that one of the key pieces that holds me back from believing it is the fact that we are reading fiction. KT made these choices (i.e. Cole/Martin parallels, etc.). She could have made Cole a three-eyed monster named Sampson (ew, why?), but no she decided to make Cole just like Maggie's father, and herself turn into someone just like her mother. Cole could have become a lawyer himself, instead he became just like her father. Cole could have been just as independent as Max and turn down the choice given to him by Martin, just like Max, eventually, did.

      There's a there there ... causing me to only feel mildly comforted by JL's assertions.

      I think Cole definitely fell in the trap, so to speak, I find him to be doing a similar thing that Maggie is doing.

      Relating it to Fromm - I think he would say that whenever you just willingly accept someone else's choices for you, you're giving up your freedom of choice. Martin's conversation with Cole to join Oxbow was a decision that Cole made. It's probably circular logic though, because it was a choice. I just think given Cole had goals that didn't involve Oxbow before, I would think he falls into the category of falling in line, too.

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    42. This is related to JL's first comments today, haven't read what he just posted!

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    43. I keep falling into my own accuracy trap, Cole is not JUST like Martin, but acts like it sometimes and does look a little like him.

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    44. One last piece that I should definitely bring up in terms of Maggie/Cole/Max's situation is that all of this is relative. I only think that Maggie and Cole's situation is not as good because of what "might have been," As a lot of people have said, things will probably work out okay for Maggie and Cole, and so might Max and Keely. But when I think about what might have been for Maggie, in particular, well, (insert all the stuff I've said the last few days).

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