Have to be the first to comment here too. The little survey was fun...think everyone could guess my answers at this point. Only one I had to think about is Cole the greatest “bull” ever...it would depend on your definition of great I guess. I’m sure many here would say no cause he took the girl, and no bull should ever do that.
For me, he is though. From the jump I knew he was different because he had a previous friendship to Max that predated his feelings for Maggie...that made this a particularly interesting, and messy combo. But it also made him more in tune with the feelings of the cuckold, some exceptions noted. Any of the other bulls would have just taken the girl without a second thought if they could.
Only one in the ballpark is Dino, and it’s not really close. He developed an understanding and respect for Geoff by the end, and I don’t think he would have wanted to blow up his life and steal Nia. Rocco and Tyler, forget it...Reza, nah.
The other that comes to mind is Renny, as he is also close friends with Nelson. But the dynamic between Natalie and him is different, I don’t think Natalie was carrying a secret torch for him like Maggie was for Cole. And I don’t think he would be as caring as Cole if he decided he wanted Natalie, he would just take her.
Yeah, I really like Cole, my second favorite in terms of actual likeability, and in that sense what do you think of Atticus, JL? Have you read the Obsessed series yet? I now have a little bit of a chance to explain why i picked him over Cole after KT asked us this before. I just think Atticus is much more put together and honest with himself and others. I guess it remains to be seen if his encounters with Gretch get too nostalgic or if he loses his indifferent connection with Amy, but Atticus is a professional with a successful career and no bullshit and honest. I can't wait until KT picks that back up.
For transparency, I hope Atticus loses his honest edge, so in that sense, if that happens mmm, still Atticus because he was a fellow nerd in college. I appreciate Cole's niceness as a total jock, but he is a kiss and tell guy. Atticus is classy AF
I really really like Atticus. He would be in there for me as greatest bull, but I didn’t include him in my rankings as that was a slightly different story.
I would love to see another chapter of Obsessed. But I sense it may end your thoughts about Atticus being all nice. I left that last published chapter with the distinct impression there was a story to be told about Atticus, his fathers wife, and their young kids. A story I desperately want to hear by the way...lol.
Man, I think hate is a strong word for these characters and their decisions even though I think many of them were selfish at the expense of people they claimed to care about. Maybe that's just me.
Additionally - there was some discussion in last thread about Maggie sort of "delaying" a decision as opposed to consciously stringing Max along, but I don't think she should get bonus points for poor planning. A person in that situation is emotionally incentivized to not take the time to sit down and make a choice or even address in her own mind that she should make a choice- why should she if she can just not think about it and just keep having her cake and eating it too? I'm not saying it's purposeful, but it is self-centred.
Perhaps the way to look at those questions on Maggie and Cole is “Do you hate what they did?l or maybe more pointedly “Do you hate how they did it?” You can not hate a person, but dislike a decision they made or how they chose to handle it.
For me, the answer is still no, I don’t hate it. It was an imperfect solution to an impossible situation, but in this case the best one. They both knew they couldn’t just cut Max loose for various reasons we already discussed.
IMO he would have been in more pain stewing in NY unaware while their love blossomed in Boston, than he was seeing it up close and personal and realizing it was the real thing.
Like to point out Question 2 is a trick question/s and has a yes/no no/yes answer.
Otherwise i dont hate any of these peeps. They just muddleing along like everyone making their mistakes right where it should be, in their youth. Now years from now i can see Maggie after waving good bye to max and family after a christmas party. Returning to Carol and cole in deep conversation and martin nodding his head. Maggie may wonder what it would have been like to walk out the door and away from New Tara on Maxs arm instead of keely. But then her son maxy jumps into her arms and all that fluff is fogotten.
This reminded me of another moment in the story, when she is looking at Max and dreaming of what it would have been like being Max's wife. She describes it as "not bad...not bad at all." This is the definition of a backhanded compliment lol. I would want my wife to describe being with me as something more than "not bad."
I'm sorry I'm late, did something happen when I was gone? lol I've missed so fucking much because of my life right now. I've had late hours of work and when Amazon decided to dangle a KT novel in front of my face at 1am in the morning, I thought it would be better to try to read it at a skim pace and not sleep, rather than take the time to really read a story. The result is literally an hour of sleep, and it fucking sucked! And I didn't do her story justice at all.
The next day was work, work, work and pass out. This is the end of a saga that I've been pining for since last year, I needed time to really read, and digest. And try and fail not to read people's reactions on here. I did okay, and I skimmed the story anyways as I read them, but still, failed! That being said, if what I write here has already been hashed out, explained, better elaborated, I apologize.
I'm all over the place with this one, and over the course of discussion with you guys I'll hopefully make my opinion clear. Let me make one thing clear though, I love this story and KT Morrison. There isn't a 'but' though I do think there are some things that I need to say which would seem a little bit like I didn't like it, I totally did like it.
First things first, Cole marries Maggie - it really did feel like they were meant to be together, Cole knew Maggie so well as a friend, he did all the things Max did, but just had that little extra which made him special in Maggie's heart. He won. I don't know how to really grapple with the weird weaving of a polyamorous relationship which I'll get to later, but it might be important to acknowledge in that thought "He won" because no she just loves Cole more or whatever, but ultimately it seems like Cole was the better choice for Maggie.
I know I'm the most vocal (I think I can just leave it at that, but I'll add unnecessary qualifiers) proponent for the 'bull takes the girl' scenario, even though I really don't ever relate to them, but KT is unbelievable at making me want the husband/boyfriend character to be happy. It might just be that she makes real people, so real that empathy is just the natural reaction, but for whatever the cause, I felt for Max.
It's why I don't understand why Maggie strung him along when her heart was spreading to someone else so strongly. I guess it's because Max liked it too? Maggie likes Max being there with her (thank you, it adds to the scene), but why doesn't she think it through? She knows Max was hurting trying to come up with a way to keep her by letting her explore once he saw her with Jay. It needed to stop because of what Maggie was intending when she was with Cole. Why did she like Max's eyes on her so much as she let herself be taken away from him, repeatedly? They're all friends, but I think that Maggie should have shut him out of her sex life.
Honestly though, but what do I know? I just don't understand their lifestyle, and so trying to comprehend Max's servitude to 'sexual suffering' as he describes it, Maggie wanting to be alone with him for an intimate blowjob, letting him know first that she's pregnant, it was all sweet, but I couldn't relate to it. I really tried.
I don't believe Maggie's mom saw the security footage first, I'm curious what other people think. I seriously doubt Carol would have reacted to seeing that footage as some sort of key to her plan to get her to law school. I have to laugh at the concept, "DP sex in the music room, eh? It's all going according to plan" *cackles* Hell no, Carol sees that and it's *ring ring* "Maggie we have to talk about the men in your life."
I'll quick add some more thoughts, below, then I'll try to read others comments and catch up when I get a moment.
I had a lot of thoughts in this and I'll start with a couple: 1) Max and Keely were sweet, but I don't know if they will last. I admit I saw this from other people's comments but I agree with it, Max is inexplicably linked to Maggie so long as they stay close like they are, and while that continues to develop further, Keely's relationship with Max will have to lag behind and catch up. Maggie talked about the possibility of her developing resentment towards Cole if Max cut them off, and I think the same holds true for Max and Maggie. Differences of course, but similar. Plus, Keely might be understanding of their lifestyle, but how can she really embrace and understand what they are doing? It just seems like she's having a bit of fun because it's different, and they're kind of "the cool kids," yes, I think age is a factor for her.
Again, what do I know? I'm boring and want Keely for myself if I had her.
2) What does Cole mean that Maggie 'wasn't serious' at the Poirot in DM? And how did Maggie agree with that statement? One of the central reasons why she needed out of there was because it was so crazy that she knew Max saw her share something powerful and private with Cole. Meant for only them, how is that anything other than serious?
3) More generally, here are the pros and cons to the "truth" game. I absolutely loved the emotionally release of so many pressing questions being answered simultaneously, and it's the last story in a mega saga, so closure is really, really appreciated. It is a logistical impossibility to make each of these revelations more gradual in this story, too. I just think it's too easy, and way too close to the last moment that made them angry at each other so much. 10 days without any communication is enough time for Max to put aside his jealousies enough to let Cole have honest to goodness love making with Maggie while she smiles at Max? Maggie could really conclude that she wants both Cole and Max? Cole could admit he wants to steal Maggie from Max and he's over that feeling now? Too easy. Necessary. But too easy.
I'll have plenty of good things to say about this story in a little bit, but there's burning questions for me!
2) Cole used his recording of Maggie saying she'd like to cheat but not really cheat to convince max to let him be alone with her. However, when maggie recorded that video with him, she was only humoring him, not meaning the things she said on camera. Internally, she did kind of want to be with Cole alone but wasn't ready yet to be 'broken' like that. Had max seen their whole interaction on video he might have realized maggie didn't really ask for those things and never let him be alone with her.
I feel like a central piece to why I feel the way I do right now about this story is A) a lot of the mysteries have been solved and one of the most fascinating elements of a KT novel is it's mystery, and B) It's over!
TBTH...glad you got some time to comment. I was with you on Max and Keely when I first read it through, I was real worried. But I’m not now, and here’s why: I think Max at the end has finally fully committed to her. They may still play with Maggie and Cole, but it will be because it excites Max to see her with Cole, not because he’s still pining for Maggie.
JL I haven't been able to read all your comments yet, I'm honestly overwhelmed, I want to just put a rubber stamp cosign again on everything you've written that I've read. Thanks for being such a good reader.
I'm also content with that fact that Cole is Maggie's true partner and not Max. Cole is just more suitable for her. Max/Maggie could work, but why deal with the baggage when someone wonderful like Keely exists?
Glad to see your comments again 2b2h. Felt that way about Keely and max too. But I think in the grand scheme he realizes Keely is a keeper That she will be "loyal" to him..
I did not like that Cole never tried to contact Max over the course of the time he left for home, is it because he was so mad about him leaving Maggie behind with Jay possibly loaming? Or because Max said such hurtful stuff to him? I'm sure wanting a chance to be with Maggie without resistance was welcomed too.
I like that Cole had an elaborate plan to make his wedding night sex with Maggie so hot, but to note listen to his best man's speech? Then to check the closet for the ghost of a best man in a time where (now with new information) he partially manipulated Max to sitting quietly in because Maggie 'wanted it.'
Very fitting scene for the story, really when thinking about it.
Sorry caught myself on a tangent, I don't think the speech skipping and recency suite and what transpired within are connected, but taken together, it is pretty blue.
Max's speech was not the best man's speech. Maggie calls it impromptu and the timing of Max getting on the stool is specified as being after the speeches. There's not many people around to hear Max, and when she follows Ken back into the Poirot the cleanup has already begun. This is at the tail end of the reception. Cole did not skip his Best Man's speech.
Oh dammit, I'm sorry. I really should have put that together shouldn't I have? It wasn't a big thought, but now the weight of Cole not being there isn't as heavy.
Before I get too far off the deep end with trying to sound like a good critic of your work, I want to applaud your writing on that speech, another example of putting us right in the moment and just genuinely enjoyed the monologue immensely. Everyone else was great too.
I actually cried when Max was watching Maggie and Cole dancing the bride and groom dance.
Yes, that was a tough moment for me too...as well as some of the things Maggie says to Max while they’re in Tahiti. But I’ve come to believe there was a method to Maggie doing what she did...she wanted to give him that final push to Keely.
Cry-moments: the dance (keep that song away from me right now), Maggie's true elation when max surprises her in Tahiti (that got me for some reason--but happy reasons), the final paragraph got me (that might be me wrapping up a year of my life spent on these characters) ... I might add to this later ...
The one part of Max coming to see Maggie in Tahiti...wouldn’t she have immediately recognized his voice? At first she’s scared until she sees his face. Unless he was disguising it somehow. Sorry if I now ruined that scene lol.
The last paragraph is a smile for me...two young couples enjoying their lives and envisioning their bright futures. If Max and Keely have a girl, do we think they name her June? Or does Maggie beat them to the punch? Probably not, she’d leave that honor to Max.
Painful moment for me in retrospect is Maggie and Cole consummating their marriage. Up until that moment, Max has always come up in Maggie's thoughts, and to be honest with you guys, it was kind of a turn off when it happened, but was always fitting to who Maggie was and how important Max was to her, so fuck my stupid kinks. That said, no mentions of Max at all in her mind during that scene, and it kind of stings. She is with the man she wants, no need for comparison, Cole is the one. Not Max.
In a lot of ways I can see the value of then following up that situation with Max taking Keely up to the Bridal Suite, a sort balancing act that takes the pain of the previous scene down a notch
TBH I didn’t focus much on the Maggie Cole scene, I was more about Max and Keely in the Bridal Suite. That was such a beautiful moment, and it was when I was screaming in my head to Max to get his s@#$ together and commit to Keely. Even though he’s hurting she knows just what to do to soothe him.
Yea i enjoyed the bridal suite scene much more than the regency room. But KT had to slip one in on me by making Max watch cole and Maggie go skinny dipping..dang it. I just think that was a moment that max was getting into his head that ok its over and im still alive. I got a hot babe in my bed whose gonna be loyal to me.
I think he's fighting with a small part of himself all throughout the 2 Epilogues...95% of him is totally in love with Keely, he wants her, needs her, and knows she's his future. Then something happens that reminds the 5% of him still pining for Maggie that he lost what that part feels is the love of his life.
But each time that happens its Keely that prevents him from falling into despair. After the song plays...in the bridal suite...after he sees them running naked on the beach. Then finally, with a little assist from Maggie I think, that final 5% lets go on the balcony and surrenders. Keely wins..and Max does too.
Yea i like that...also self correction max didnt think keely was loyal....but fucking faithful. Meaning Maggie was not. To me that means he still harbored a bitter "she cheated on me" attitlude. so even though hes moved on its with a taint.
Yeah, I picked up on the “fucking faithful” too. Is it a dig at Maggie? Probably a little...I have to think even a saint like Max harbors a tiny bit of anger at Maggie over what happened. He wouldn’t be human if he didn’t.
But I think the line is more about Keely and how she feels about him than anything else. He knows she loves him, and that she isn’t searching for anyone else. She’s found her one, and he understands that.
I want to point out that the song played during the dance at the wedding, "You're the best thing," was a great choice. And it hit me twice because at that point in the story it was ambiguous whether the husband was Cole or Max. I assumed it was Cole, and in that brief moment when I thought the lyrics were referring to Cole, I felt deeply for him. So, so deeply. And then it was revealed as Cole and the rug was pulled out from under me and I disliked him even more. Then I had to re-evaluate those lyrics and tie them to Max's connection with Maggie. Heartbreaking.
I think those lyrics work fit more neatly with Cole's situation had Max ended up marrying Maggie but it works with both. And it's so heartbreaking that Max had to listen to that song so many times, knowing its implications. But he did anyway and chose to be Cole's best man. If you don't think Max is a saint, you're wrong.
I didn’t go into it in the book for fear of overstating, but that song is for max and Maggie, not Cole and Maggie. I added it to the post above, listen and presume the lyrics are for max and you’ll see why I was bawling. Tearing up right now, ha ha ...
It really is a beautiful song...So sincere and asks for nothing..I hope so bad that Max doesn't feel that forever for Maggie. That feeling would destroy a person. Tearing up just looking at those words..fucking music..
Somewhere someone asked about Maggie not recognizing Max’s voice in bora bora but I can’t find it now, so: she was lost in thought and thousands of miles from where she would expect to hear Max’s voice. It might be different if it was Boston or nyc, but she’s in the middle of the ocean. The kerfuffle only lasts a second anyway before her brain catches up.
Parting shot for the night - does anyone else immediately question the sincerity of a point whenever a KT character adds emphasis to a point their making?
Not "I love you" but "I really do love you" like Maggie says a couple times. it made me question Keely's statement when Max said she was his rock and Keely replied, "Its my honor, I mean it."
Ahh! Kiss of death, lol. Just say what you mean, don't draw attention to what you're saying as if you need proof!
I go by that in real life lol...it’s like who are trying to convince, me or you? With Maggie, she’s still in denial there that she’s in love with Cole. With Keely, I think at that point there is more unease under the surface over Max’s feelings for Maggie than she lets on. While she’s outwardly so supportive of Max as he works things through. I’m sure internally she was saying “C’mon man, can’t you see I’m your ‘one and only’ not Maggie.”
In retrospect, yes, I would question it every time. There's such a long time gap and we missed so many interactions, though.
Max never called Maggie 'his rock' and I'm so happy that Max found his. Even being able to say that..'you're my rock'.. is so romantic. I question when Maggie expresses her feelings, but not Max. That's real. It's so sappy but I love it.
Really goes to show that KT cares about her characters. It's hard for me to view these guys as fiction, I know of course that they are, but they seem so real....And I just want them to be happy....
Carol saw the tapes. She is fully capable of separating her goals for Margaret as Family with a capital F, from whatever motherly instincts she may still possess. Besides, it's not anything she hasn't seen before from her previous life -;)
kt, a modest ask - since green eyes are a recessive trait and since I have them as well, can I have first dibs on Keely to keep this particular form of diversity going? please?
Sad that this story has had its conclusion. Said before didnt care who ended up with who as long as everyone was happy. Especially Maggie, then things went sideways on me. Found myself feeling bad for max and i mean in both poor max getting dumped bad and dam you idiot max bad. Cole was a player and we all kind of knew it but even players have feelings and he fell hard for maggie. Im also not forgetting that Cole at first was a reluctant participant. But when the door was opened he had no problem marking maggie as a conquest. It remained with maggie to choose and max made all the wrong turns and cole all the right ones. Maybe some of maxs wrong turns were due to Cole and maggie to a degree putting up road blocks, to keep him veering off. But none of it matters as alls well that ends well. True love prevailed for Maggie and Cole. Not so much for Max i think in the back of his mind he'll always conider maggie as the one that got away and keely the one that didnt.
Have faith in Keely and Max John! I truly do believe he’s committed to her and has let go of Maggie at the end. He was pining for a Maggie that he comes to realize didn’t exist anymore, and maybe never really did. He knows his true love is Keely on that balcony.
Maybe i think my doubts come from that we see keely and max at the wedding then right before the credits roll. Not enough exposure to the sincerity. Which we discuss here . I dont doubt that over time maxs pain and hurt dissipate but at the wedding those wounds still seem abit tender. Hence the "fucking faithful" . He will always remember Maggie you never forget your first love. Just thinking how much max is steered to his current relationship rather than natural selection. To me maggie and cole seem to drive max where they want him to be which in the end is happiness ..how can you argue with that. Max maybe a brilliant businessman but in romance ....dammm!. If not for the happenstance of Keely. ...... maybe cole and Maggie realize that Max had the potential to become a leach to their love. Back to the bandaid... Indulge a what if here ..but what if keely didnt work out or doesnt. I get this is a little off the rails but just letting my mind wander this fine a.m.
John didn't see this til now, but here's my thoughts:
1) I think everything Maggie and Cole do post lodge is a complicated mix. Yes, they probably at some point just want to be together, and on a certain level, "cut Max loose." So that is selfish. But I think they also care for him and want him to be good with it. So they set him up with Keely, not to get rid of him, but because they think she's a good fit. And she is...everything Max builds with Keely he does on his own, so for me its as real as if he met her randomly on the street.
2) If Keely hadn't worked out, if her and Max didn't hit it off...I don't think Cole and Maggie would have just said: "Oh well, we tried Max...but its time you left us alone." But I don't know what Max does, knowing that those two want to be a couple (honestly he probably knew that for a long time). Maybe he just decides to give them even more space and begin to date on his own...ripping off the band aid himself. Those 6 years are really playing in my head...just a fascinating dynamic at play with all of them.
If Keely and Max doesn't work in the future...well I just don't want to think about that. But if you force me, I think Max is more mature and would be able to handle it. I don't think there's any worry there though.
For me: 1) poirot regency room part 1 2)same as above it shock and rocked me to my core. 3) at alteris when maggie decided to go to harvard and max was gonna pull levers. Did she have a piece of bubble gum to get the cum stink off her breath before they met max. I dont believe they ever revealed to max what they done. 4) max showing Maggies pictures to the drunk chick in the can at conners dorm. 5) the lodge although there were hints scatter about, but those would mostly be in hind sight. The lodge at the "Return of the Ring" very LOR the "fellowship of the ring"max maggie cole carol martin ken and debatably jay.. the "two towers" cole and max (one is a little shorter than the other) and the "Return of the Ring" kind of felt good when bilbo took the ring from Gollum(ok maggie was Gollum for me at that moment). Abidetbeditbedit thats all folks!
Hard not to pick anything above the Poirot, so I agree. I do find Maggie and Cole's first moments together on her home bed to be hot too.
2) the most tragic moment.
Hmm, in terms of fundamental moments for me, I feel like when Max left for his student teaching gig in Secret Maggie and Maggie so bashfully says, "I guess I'll just hang out with Cole." It was sort of the first moment of hopelessness in Max's control over Maggie's heart. Ah, maybe it's Cole carrying her back to the Becker house from the beach in Sharing ... or shit ... standing at the alter together as husband and wife knowing they were going to fuck later that night, in Sharing ... gah!
3) the most awkward moment.
Carol talking to her daughter, pretty much every line. Fucking bitch, "are your cheeks fat?" "You eat too much junk" "Still got blue streaks huh?" I'd like to cunt punt that bitch.
4) the most funniest moment.
Mmm - so many, I like Max running into the Music Room with the raven's head on stark naked in Sharing Maggie. That was well done considering how scared he was at the time.
5) when you knew who was the choosen one.
Might have been in Discovering Maggie, where she actually has a full on date for the first time with the man she would eventually marry. Maggie's eyes on Cole felt very powerful throughout.
You know my fondness for charcters with kinks or ideas they're embarrassed about! I liked that Maggie had thought about that and was embarrassed that she wanted it. When she presented it to Cole she wasn't even sure if that was a thing. I love her immaturity that still clung to her even as she shed her more youthful things and became a Carol-type.
That scene was not about the act, but about a secret kink Maggie had. She came up with that on her own. I also think despite its obvious kinkiness I think it stands as a strong symbol of her confusion over the relationship with her two boys.
1. Drawing the J in Maggie's butt when they were practicing sex but not actually having sex :eyeroll: There was something ... I don't know, that scene to me was perfect. Submission and dubious consent all at the same time.
2. hmmm... you know I have to think more on this. I'll post the rest later ...
The quiz (I love these cause it forces me to go back and relive some great moments):
1) For me it’s the dorm room scene, where Jessie finds them. To me, that’s the perfect example of Cole and Maggie’s relationship. A combination of caring and tenderness and real dirty kinks. I discounted the possibility they were in love until that point. After that, I had to concede they might be.
2) The most tragic moment for me might in retrospect be Max going to Ken to try and get him to convince Maggie to dump Cole. Just a guy who is desperately flailing at any idea to stop the water from this flood he’s inflicted on his life.
But in the moment, the two most tragic points for me reading was the scene in the Twilight and when Maggie admits to Max in the lodge she loves Cole, and that when she’s afraid Jay might attack her the first thought that popped into her head was she might never see Cole again. Just absolute heart falling into my feet moments for poor Max.
3) Most awkward moment for me is definitely anything to do with Carol and whether she saw the security footage. The realization by Maggie that her mother may have saw the things she did with Cole and Max is just so damn uncomfortable.
4) Funniest moment for me...gee I don’t know that one. My memory tends to skew toward the more recently published chapters on things like this, so I’ll say Cole picking up Max with his new watch and taking him into the ocean. For me it’s funny and sweet, and I smiled and laughed seeing their friendship fully rebuilt despite the horrible things that happened to ruin it. But it also resembles their relationship to a tee as Maggie explains to Keely. Max enjoys surrendering himself to Cole, and not just with his women.
5) I didn’t know she was picking Cole until her conversation with Ken when she admits to herself she always had a thing for Cole, and probably manipulated the situation so she could be with him and see if it was possible. But reading some of your recollections of little moments with Maggie and Cole, scenes I discounted at the time, the evidence was always there from the moment they hooked up. I just didn’t want to see it.
Real quick note to KT - you're right, I'm sure when you read what I said you thought, "Really, that sex act is the first one I did that made you think 'boy that seemed unrealistic'?" I realize as I think about it, you do pepper your scenes with extreme situations because of the importance of what it means to everyone involved, and yeah I didn't lose the symbolism of Max and Cole as one. Nor the importance of Max finishing first, or how far Max could even reach, etc. I won't talk about it anymore, sorry!
Other extremes, virginal orgy in TWHW1, Rocco using Nia's face on multiple occasions in LHW2, and unlubricated back entries in LHW. My timing on bringing up crazy situations is a bit late isn't it?
1) Hottest scene for me was probably at the food tasting event, outside the bathroom when Cole was teasing Maggie. Not really a sex scene, but it was so perverted.
2) Most tragic scene was when Maggie said she wanted to be "open". That's when the pretense that she was just getting life experiences goes out the window.
3) Most awkward would probably be when they find Ken walking along the road the morning after he witnesses their threesome. Wouldn't want to be Ken in that situation.
4) Funniest: Max's speech at the wedding. He let LOOSE.
5) I didn't know for certain until the reveal at the wedding, but I suspected it was a losing battle when Maggie said she wanted to be open. 'Open' being a soft way of saying she wanted to be with Cole exclusively.
You guys are good! Everyone brought something different to the table. No wrong answers and alot of dead on ones. Could have made the questions for each charactor but my poor keyboard and eyes woukd suffer for it.
Sorry for mental vomit so early in the morning, but KT can we talk about the line in Sharing Maggie, "I've wanted this for so long" not from Cole necessarily, but from Maggie? As the story unfolds she only ever admits to eventually wanting to hook up with him as she started her sexual adventure, but that line felt like an accidentally honest moment where she acknowledged harbored feelings for him for a while prior to everything.
One other related piece. KT, please answer this too, I asked you this after LHW2, I think the answer is different in this one. If Max did not sort of prod Maggie in the direction of being shared, would she had eventually left Max for Cole?
I am torn, in some sense I think no because they did so good for years of friendship never acknowledging any attraction between them despite lots of play physical teasing like the "keep away" moment in Tempting ... side bar question I might as well ask too... in hindsight was Maggie flirting, in THAT way, in that scene with Cole and not even realizing it? Or was Cole in the friend zone still?
2nd question first: maggie admits it to herself in RM, that she and Max were doomed the moment she hosted Jay in her dorm room with terrible intent. Max was holding on to something that was falling apart and he did his best ...
wanted this for so long: Yeah, I would say that she had feelings of a lack of sexual fulfillment despite the great love she had with max, and that there was a deep longing for her to be with a guy like Cole. Since he was such a good friend too, she probably wanted it emotionally as well.
Flirting: yes, flirting without flirting. At this point she didn't think she was good enough for a guy like Cole. Just playing with him would get her charged up for sure. Had he stuck his hand up her shirt or something however she would slap his hand away and be mad. Shit's complicated, huh?
Also, though I've posted pictures of Lauren Tsai I don't think Maggie is quite that beautiful. She would skew more to the adorable side. There's something about Lauren Tsai's movements that are like Maggie's; her cuteness. But LT is a high-end model. Maggie didn't think she was pretty enough to get a guy like Cole. And as disappointing as this may be, Cole's opinion of her might have changed a little when he visited her home and saw her family's level of wealth. Now she was his good friend, super-adorable, and mate material. Though he still wouldn't have made a move and had to be coaxed. The idea of being with her was actually difficult for him to accept at first.
While Cole is hot and will always be successful, he didn't have the drive that Max had. Max didn't care much about what the Becker's had, never mentioned it. In fact shared uncomfortable jokes about the Beckers. he wasn't after their stuff. Cole liked the trappings and while he does whole-heartedly love maggie, that relationship may never have blossomed had she come from a middle-class family. That was why Max's statement in the Twilight hurt both Maggie and Cole—it was close to the truth they both feared. Cole would hate to think that was why he was with her and she would be afraid that it was why he was with her. Back to her thoughts of not being good enough.
Sometimes the comments that hurt the most are the ones that have an element of truth behind them. That’s why Cole was so pissed at Max for saying that. I don’t think he’s with Maggie for the Becker’s money, but I agree it certainly played a role in his attraction to her.
It’s just been so great going back and reliving some of these moments in the earlier chapters now that the full truth has come out. I’m slapping my head now saying “How didn’t I see it?” But in a way, it makes me even more sure of my thoughts at the ending that everyone is with the person they’re meant to be with.
I think if all this stuff doesn’t happen, Max and Maggie get married and become Pete and Jess. At some point Maggie was going to stray from Max in search of something. Better to find that out at 21, then at 35 with 2 little kids.
Since I brought up the scene of Jessie finding Cole and Maggie, it has me wondering what happened to her and Maggie’s relationship. We get no indication she’s at the bridal party or even the wedding. I know I wasn’t the only one who when that prologue was published just assumed she was the Maid of Honor.
Did that scene in the dorm permanently alter their relationship, or is it just an example of people drifting apart after school?
What was the hint that Cole was a bit of a gold digger? I didn't realize Max's criticism was so biting when he said it. Was it how Cole talked about meeting Maggie's friends and Family during "Practice" in Secret Maggie? I totally took that as Cole just feeling closer to her because he knew more about her past and where she came from. It kind of takes the pleasantness out that interaction (where his thingy was notwithstanding lol) now that you say what you did about Cole.
I don’t think there’s a specific hint. For me, it’s kind of what KT said...it’s in the way Cole talks about the Beckers. And contrasted to how Max talks about the Beckers, which is basically, never. Again, I don’t think that’s the reason he’s with Maggie, but it plays a part in his attraction to her. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, power and money are attractive, but I think it’s a truth he doesn’t really want to admit.
Hence why that comment got to him. His only retort to it was to punch Max...that told me he didn’t really have a good response. Cause he knew at some small level it rang true and he was ashamed of it.
Yeah, I'll buy that he talked about, oh wow look at all this cool shit, but I never took that to mean anything other than someone being impressed by the fancy new toys, and hella expensive bourbons, not a factor determining his attraction to Maggie. So that's news to me, and it lowers him a rung in the "Best of Bulls" category that now exists in my KT ethos. Close to losing out to Dino, but still better because physical assault is kind of a red line for me.
I guess for me it doesn’t really lower my opinion of him. Cause I don’t think it’s a huge part of his attraction to Maggie, or anywhere close to a determining part. If Maggie was a normal girl I think he still wants to be with her. But we’re attracted to people for all different reasons. If a small part of Cole was excited by the Beckers’ life and it partially led him to look at Maggie in a new light, that’s perfectly fine. As long as that remains a small part of the attraction.
Can we play a game real quick? It's called if the wives/fiancees/girlfriends knew we were watching?
It's simple, here are some of the women in our great stories who we have intimate knowledge of their sex lives, if they found out about us how would they react? I'll set it up and put my answers below, like John did, so you can copy/paste and go!
Maggie - Jess - Nia - Charlie - Natalie - Kate - Amy - any others you want to mention?
Maggie - I think the exploratory version of her would get off on it, she was quite vocal about being seen publicly while she was with Cole, to have the world see her in a different light than just meek innocent Maggie.
Jess - I think she would not like it, it might have illuminated how wrong things were between Tyler, Pete, and her because she would undoubtedly become self-conscious. She strikes me as a 'leave it in the bedroom' sexual person.
Nia - This one is tough, I think it would depend for her, and it would range from "No" as she shakes her rump while you leave the room, to "No and I'm going to murder you" to "Yes, but I don't want to hear you."
Charlie - Again this would depend, I think she would only do it if she thought the people around her were attractive men, she doesn't want an audience she wouldn't personally get off on, and honestly I'm probably wrong about this, she'd probably be too shy if anyone saw her.
Natalie - Hell no, porn objectifies women, and she is not a slut for us to stroke to.
Kate - Also probably no, she would really need to be turned on for any other eyes to be on her, that'd be about the only time she'd be okay with it.
Amy - How dare I even ask this? She already left the room and is asking for JJ to take her home. Probably back to South Carolina, Momma was right about moving out west.
I think as a group they would call us all a bunch of perverts. Individually might be different some would be ehh so what, others might check us out for her next meal and others may try and maintain their dignity by harumphing us.
Haha, as I ran down the list, I actually realized you're probably right. I guess it was really on the strength of Maggie alone that I even thought this was funny exercise. Then I just became a reason why that character would hate us lol.
KT, I am reminded of one of the major questions I had throughout this adventure, and if you want to answer it later, please do but can we talk about the Cole/Martin parallels. You said Cole picked up on the "daddy" perversions, but can we talk about why they are similar people and why you wanted that for Cole?
Sorry know this wasnt for me but my two cents worth. Maybe martins a bull and used carol sexuality to get ahead of his competitors until he no longer needed that. Than he built a playroom which eventually led to maggie. Which is why carol may not have been dissappointed with the video tape like mother like daughter. Her mags has an alpha who could potentially weaponize maggie to get ahead like hubby. We dont see behind that veil though purly speculative on my part.
I still think Martin is a bottom...high powered Wall St. type, used to always getting his own way, getting his kicks by being dominated and humiliated. Hey, maybe he’s even a cuck. Maybe Carol and Cole....nope, nope, not going there.
K, this isn't the direction I was hoping it would go as a question lol. KT, could you let me know if you're purposely not going there for this question?
So who was hoping for a reconciliation and who wanted cole to win fair maidens hand prior to recovering maggie. Keep in mind this isnt based on history or facts what did you gut tell you or what you hoped would happen.
For myself i already said so many times i couldnt decide but ill confess i was holding out a bit of hope for Max.
I think ice made my bias known but can hardly expect anyone else to remember it. I was on 'Team Cole' because I thought he was a pretty decent guy and Maggie and Cole really meshed well (pun absolutely intended).
I was thinking Max all the way until this chapter, but having read this last chapter and all the comments I’m happy with how everything turned out for our 3 characters.
One thing I’ve realized reading all the comments on Cole and Maggie is I didn’t really read those early chapters very well. I feel like I missed a lot of signs that Cole was the one. Or I just discounted them as KT building up tension and uncertainty before bringing Max and Maggie back together.
@jl23 Yea i get that there were alot of clues sprinkled around.but thats a kinda hindsight thing. I caught some of the signs and i think the first one that was an oh shit moment was at alteries that was a devastating moment for me suddenly max was going to have to fight for maggie prior to, she was a sure thing.
@2b2h thats was my crux ...my gut was telling me Cole was the guy but my heart wanted Max to come out on top. My heart is bigger than my gut figuiratively. Literally its opposite...lol ... i blame it on the beer.
I was hoping for no reconciliation, maybe just a friendly conversation to make things square then move their separate ways. I think Max and Maggie make better friends than life partners. That would make for a very short book, though.
Yeah I definitely saw signs but to me they weren’t that different than what we saw from Nia with Rocco, so I figured it would go a similar way.
Since this didn’t come close to happening, guess it’s safe to say what my thoughts were on how it might go. I figured there would be a confrontation similar to what we see with Max, Maggie and Cole, except Max actually leaves them and moves on with his life. He gets a job in finance while Maggie and Cole begin their lives together at Harvard. But as Maggie and Cole actually build a relationship, they begin to find the spark fade, primarily because Maggie can’t get over the fact she broke Max’s heart. Eventually they break up, Maggie wants to contact Max but he won’t speak to her.
It takes a tragedy to bring them back together...my guess was perhaps her brother Ken’s death. She desperately needs Max, but is afraid to get in contact with him for fear he’ll reject her. So it’s Cole that goes to NY to tell him, and also to let him know that he and Maggie broke up. After a long night of talking Max and Cole bury the hatchet and Max flies back with him to Boston for the funeral. When she sees him, Maggie falls into his arms sobbing, begging for forgiveness. Slowly over time, they rebuild their friendship, then eventually begin dating again. It ends with their marriage with Cole as their best man.
WOW was I wrong! Basically almost the opposite. I feel like I got some themes right, but then KT chose a completely different way to write it. Believe me, her route is 1,000x better.
I like that too but instead of ken id use maxs moms death as thr uniting force.
But those are my/our druthers. I wouldnt want the outcome we have any different than the way KT made it. I am so grateful for these post mordums. Helps a) to recognize what i missed b) to not expect a standard outcome.
I figured it needed to be someone that would devastate Maggie, and require Max to come back and show her he still cared for her. So Max’s mom wouldn’t have worked I think. The only person I could think of was Ken. Could have been Cole too, but I would need him around cause I would’ve reconciled the three as well. Just in a completely different way.
June’s death was really sad in this universe too. I’m glad that Cole, Maggie and Keely were around to help Max heal.
A lot of this series felt like a horror movie for me. I'm curious what your experiences were like.
Tempting Maggie was light and fun -- seeing Maggie with Jay the first time was troubling but easily forgivable and Max's strategy to let her explore and 'get it out of her system' sounded interesting and fun, if not a little dangerous. It stayed that way until the scene where Cole and Maggie are having a tickle fight in the common room. Mindless fun in 99.99% of situations, but in a novel like this I knew where it was going. His best man, his best friend, surely not, right? Shivers. After this point, Max isn't even in the backseat anymore. Can't even lean over the console and say, "Honey, make a left turn here." Out of fear. Maggie is in control and she goes after Cole all on her own. He's losing her right in front of his eyes and the ambiguity over whether it's real or not is chilled my bones. The beach scene where she's clinging to Cole, the bedroom scene that follows, the food tasting scenes, the pizza scene where she calls him 'baby.' Felt like a golf club was in my esophagus. Reading about Cole...telling Max it's just for fun and for her benefit...knowing full well what he's saying is bullshit. Gullible, desperate Max, walking into every booby trap, stepping on every land-mine. Tripping over himself when he talks to Maggie, unable to express himself.
When it transitions to Maggie's perspective, I'm not interested in the budding romance between her and Cole, I can't be. I'm waiting for the boogeyman to appear and scare the shit out of me. The "practice" sex, the casual dates, blowjobs in the park. I can't count the number of times he snatched me, either, the boogeyman. So many heartfelt moments, too, shedding much needed light from time to time. "Maybe Max isn't crazy for staying the course," I'd think. But it was never enough; Maggie always steered back towards the last place Max wanted to go: to Cole. Maggie's perspective was like reading straight from the demon's eyes, her having too much fun to break things off with Cole and too self-serving to break the collar she had locked around Max's neck. And then she said she wanted to be 'open' and my heart detonated. Said she wanted to go to law school for 4 years, away with Cole. I thought, "This is it Max, turn around and never look back." Maggie demonstrated to me that she wasn't concerned for Max's feelings, or was unaware of them. Not sure which of those is scarier. But he didn't leave, and at this point while I was cheering for Max, I wasn't betting on him.
The rest is history: things escalate and get worse and worse for Max. Maggie hardly even expresses long term interest in him until she asks him to go to Harvard with them. I know, I know, she says "I love you," a dozen times but what does that matter when she loves Cole equally as much, and all I want to know is who she picks.
Then the time jump and the reveal. The teasing and the suddenness of it makes it difficult to accept. I'm googling lyrics and shedding tears, mourning Max's loss. I'm shocked that Max is even there. But he's taking it a bit better than I am, he did have more warning after all. And then gradually, the pit in my stomach dissipates as I realize Priestess Keely has exorcised his demon and he can finally live a torment-free life.
Im sorry i had a full page response and lost it all in a accidental left swipe.
So short version. My view is not that far away but far enough
I see what maggie saw in cole stated it back in one of the other blogs. He was an experienced player or he was the more mature of the three. Max was the playmate Cole was the "daddy figuire".
My breaking point was the poirot part 1. It was awesomely hot and also soo wrong. I was like "oooh snap wait til max finds out ..shit will hit the fan!" Than i was crushed that my hero was perving in the closet. Than to boot he sends cole after Maggie to "straighten things out"
I gotta hand it to KT that was one of the best gotcha scenes yet. Absoulutely devastated me. After that i couldnt count myself as team Max anymore. He was sabotaging his own relationship. Than the alreries meeting.. He accuses cole of convincing maggie to go to harvard maggie defends the decision as her own choice (cole so did sway her choice). So max has to put on a grin and shake hands and all is well in paradise. Knowing full well he was going to plot against them as they were him.
So summing up abit max as much as cole caused his own problem he didnt react quick enough or strongly enough to stem the tide. Cole manipulated the situation to his advantage. As well as maggie and maggies advantage was cole.
I like this story mostly because the bull won. Its not the typical reconcile story. It was a twist and i love twists. Like nia doing it at the wedding with rocco. Who would have thunk it? It was a wedding the husband was there her friends were there and shes boinking big dick on the table in the other room..it was a nice twist.
So much more to say i dont think this properly identifies my feeling on this story as my feelings were all over the place.
Is Cole a bull, though? I realize he was the third partner and was the dominant one, but I never viewed him as a 'bull'. Idk why, maybe because he was so close to them and because generally bull isn't so smart and uses his tie with the husband/fiance to ultimately steal the girl for his own. I think he warrants a different word. He's more like an invader or assassin.
I also want to point out that I didn't only view this story as a horror movie. With the time in between each chapter especially, I was able to think about it and read comments on here and widen my perspective. Get a feel for what Cole might be going through, why Maggie was doing what she was doing. And I understood them, but every decision Maggie made seemed to frighten me anyway.
I feel like one of the central tenants to a KT novel/series, is that the world is full of grey area. We all have an idea in our mind about what we want in life, what others want in it, how we want to achieve our goals, and how to measure succeeding them. When it comes to love, we have this idea for much of our lives that there is one other person out there for me, and once you have someone in your life say, “I love you” you might think you have a really solid idea of what that means based on your preconceptions.
You (general ‘you’ not ‘you, you’ lol) know and I know, life is never that simple.
There's a journey when you’re with someone you say “I love you” to, and it’s winding and full of obstacles, particularly, the things that they want out of life might not be what you had in mind. You adjust your standards, or at least you can choose to, by saying, ok it turns out that by allowing her to do what he/she is doing she might be happier. And by extension, so will I be. I might only agree to it a little bit because some part of me understands and even relates to the good aspects of this shared experience, but not necessarily to the fullest extent that would make me feel fully happy. Still, she says she's happy, and I DID enjoy it a bit, so maybe this is just something we need to journey through. Like meeting the in-laws, it gradually gets better and eventually, becomes no big deal.
The above paragraph was vague! You can apply a lot to it, but obviously the main driver of the conflict, namely sex, is what I was applying. Did I just compare watching your future wife to meeting the in-laws? Maybe it’s a bad example … lol.
The reality is we’re not sure if we’re doing anything perfectly right. And when the reality dawns on us that we might be wrong, that the direction we’re going isn’t the best one, or that we aren’t sure, can be unsettling, and also intriguing. It’s that feeling that I feel like KT explores. At no time do either of us really know if Maggie will stay with Max, to JL’s point above, but then again, both of them are doing this thing together because they believe it to be in the best interest of their love. As the experience becomes less an abstract concept and Maggie starts to accumulate experiences, both of them grapple with what it is they feel from it and try to gauge whether it’s what they intended.
I feel like the KT reader needs to have a certain emotional depth to them to fully embrace her stories. A sort of emotional “You must be this tall to ride” otherwise there will be a point in the story at which you just shut down and reject the whole thing. Sort of a *points fingers at different people* “Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you’re cool, fuck you” (that’s a Half-Baked reference if you’re into B-comedies). And I feel like she understands that we don’t and can’t know everything about how we, or others, feel. At least not right away.
In a lot of ways this story is a success story, but not about finding love necessarily (depending on who you ask at least), which may be the preconception we usually have when we pick up books that have beginnings and ends. Sort of a “Hey, this book ended, isn’t happily ever after supposed to be on this page?” It’s a success story in that navigating the grey area of loving or trying to love other people led through some extremely troubled waters and yet everyone survived it, and can continue on living, learning, loving. That was sappy. The problems that exist in the world still exist, won’t ever go away, and we may never know what we are doing things right, and that might feel a bit unsettling as we turn off our kindles. I don’t think KT will ever relieve that feeling. But I think that’s because she genuinely believes she can’t help you there, and probably no one else can, not even yourself necessarily. But you can try, and succeed and fail along the way, and hope that the warm feeling that she leaves in the wake of the storm that was created in this series, will continue.
We have reason to think so, and we have reason not to, and the mystery continues …
@wa as for the horror show: My magic power is stoicism. I tend to look at things in logical sequence. When the markers indicate a direction i follow it. this story had a lot of things that lead me this way or that. I liked cole i hated cole, i liked max i hated max. I liked maggi then i hated her then i felt bad for both max and maggie. Wasn't sure why. But thats where the bread crumbs lead me. Ultimately i was glad they both had solid relationships in the end. Yes i was horrorfied a couple of times; the poirot, cole convinceing maggie to cheat. Alteries, the tickle fest. The ring pull felt good but also bad part of me was thinking hes gonna.toss it in mt doom. And he lost maggie but another paet thought he could get her back. I tend to cheer the underdog and Max became that.
TBTH I thinked you kind of summed it up pretty good there...how I feel after reading a KT story. Usually happy, but more than a little unsettled. They usually stay with me for a long time afterward, as you can probably tell. Nia and Geoff stayed right in the back of my mind for almost a week or two after...they would constantly pop up in my head at random moments as I thought about what I had read and dreamed of the future for them. It’s been the same for Max and Maggie (and Cole and Keely too) so far. So glad I have this forum to get my thoughts out. Even if only for me, it’s comforting to see my thoughts in writing.
On my emotions throughout the story, I would describe them as a roller coaster. I don’t think I’ve ever had such a change in feelings for our main characters in one story. Typically my feelings for them don’t really change as the story progresses, what I feel for them at the beginning is generally how I feel throughout the story.
Here it was different...I loved Max and Maggie, but was incredibly frustrated by each of them and their decisions at various points. You can say I even disliked them at points, maybe even hated. Same with Cole, I loved him at the start...grew to hate him by the end of Uncovering Maggie, then ended up loving him again. KT always puts my emotions through the ringer, but here it felt turned up tenfold. And it was wonderful.
As I said, up until those scenes at the lodge I felt sure Max and Maggie would figure out a way to each other at the end, and if that somehow didn’t happen, I figured I would be really upset. And I admit to feeling somewhat melancholy after reading it initially, as my initial reaction was that Max had ultimately lost.
But as I read it closer a second and third time, I fell in love with a fourth character, the wonderful Keely, and realized in the end Max didn’t lose at all. He’s no runner up, not when he has HER. That scene on the balcony, which first made me a little sad and mournful for Max’s loss, now makes me joyous for all he has. And all he’s about to gain.
For me, KT’s story are all about the struggle and growth of characters, and how they get to the other side in a better place. They have horrible things happen to each other, and often do horrible things to each other. But they use those things, and the lessons they learned from experiencing them, to get to their place of happiness at the end. Every relationship is a little different when we leave them, but all seem to be in the place they’re meant to be, at least for me as a reader. And they all have one thing in common: they leave me wanting more.
Though at the same time, I don’t want more, because I don’t want to see these characters go through pain again. I just want to think good thoughts for them. So there’s that roller coaster of emotions again. I’m sure I’ll be feeling that way soon about new characters, or if we get continued journeys of Charlie and Jonny, Nelson and Natalie, or any of the other characters we’ve met along the way. But these four we’re just leaving now will stay with me for a long time.
To show how these stories stay with me, I confess often times afterward I devise new epilogues for them, to work through my thoughts on where I think they’ll be, and also to just keep thinking of them in my head frankly. They usually just stay in my head, but occasionally I write them down solely for my amusement...and probably my sanity lol. They don’t have the great mix and love, drama and trauma of KT...they’re only happy thoughts.
As I woke up this morning, I had a couple thoughts on these four as well. I have a pretty good picture of Max and Keely’s wedding, which I suspect would happen about a year after the end of the last epilogue, but I can really see a point about a year in advance in that, and will probably be writing about it when I get free time in the evenings this week.
I see Max peering into the window of a hospital nursery, intently looking at a sleeping newborn, with wispy strands of fiery red hair just like her mother. His daughter June. Then I hear the voice of another little girl calling out to him, and he turns around to see her reaching out for him from her beaming mother. These two aren’t his, but in the end they still are in a way. It’s his goddaughter and Maggie excitedly visiting the newest arrival of the family. And they are a family.
I’m looking forward to exploring that scene more in my head tonight. I’m almost in tears now just thinking of it...just have to work Keely and Cole in there.
JL - Really good stuff. I hope in my insomnia-induced diatribe I didn't lose sight of the emotional component that (at risk of understating), is absolutely front and center of a KT novel. To how I understand KT's work, the roller coaster is integral. It isn't about feeling so cozy you want to vomit at how cheesy it is, because there's some sort of karmic balancing act that takes place in every story. With all the good feels, comes the bad, that's part of the unsettling nature of reading a KT story. The ever present feeling (good or bad) that whatever you're feeling right now will have an equal and opposite reaction.
I love that! It's life! I want life when I read fiction. Obviously not totally to life, because that'd probably be boring, but if you can make me believe what I'm reading, then mission accomplished. And when it comes to how I evaluate the characters, that too will vary, because no one has perfectly ideal qualities. We've talked endlessly about the good and bad aspects of Maggie, Max, and Cole. I want that balance, it makes me think endlessly about what they are doing/what they did! If they were archetypes, well, we know what that would be, simple and easy to digest. Thank you KT, for never making it that simple!
For example:
Good Max- Thoughtful, giving in the ultimate sense (relationship-wise), smart, engaging Bad Max- Withdrawn at times, indecisive when it matters, poor choice of actions at other times
TBTH I agree...the reasons these stories are great is because all the characters come across as human, with good points and faults that combine for great reading. Even the "villains" are not caricatures.
The "heroes" speak to me because they remind me an awful lot of myself and my own struggles at times. I see a lot of myself in Max's introversion and indecisiveness. And Pete is the guy I try to say I'm not but I too often am. Geoff at his best is the kind of man I aspire to be and occasionally am. God I love them each in their complicated way.
JL - I have a similar desire when it comes to things that I really like to think on them and let my mind wander, but unlike you I tend to depress the shit out of myself, lol. There's this lingering specific scenario I've had for a long time, I can't remember after what book, but now has a little bit more voice to its premise and it takes place shortly after much of this story takes place (i.e. still in college).
It's this moment where it's spring ... Lacrosse season ... and Maggie and Max are together getting ready because they are going out to watch the game. Maggie's excited, Max tries to match it, but he's just perplexed that Maggie, who doesn't give a shit about sports gets so into Lacrosse. Truth is she really just admires the skill and grace that Cole plays with. She's enthralled with the game, especially when you know who gets the ball. Max is just lost this particular day in how rapt Maggie's attention is with it. She even starts to sing the Farmington Fight Song, she never sang it once in her entire time at Farmington.
Since they became an official trio, that makes this scenario a little bit more understandable. I didn't think it would happen if Max got shut out of the relationship during the time of this story (before the epilogues obviously).
Yeah, as much as I don’t want to see it, I think imagining those first few months and years after the lodge is interesting. Seeing how the dynamic slowly changed. And I would really like to see that Keely and Max meeting. Did Maggie really talk up Max before that, or did Keely just dig him immediately. I think she probably spent months complaining to Maggie about all the “assholes” she dated, and when she met Max she just knew.
During work I put together a great scene in my head with Maggie, Max and Cole hanging out the night before his wedding. Now I’m struggling to remember it all and write it down. I was trying not to be too obvious that I wasn’t focused on work. Thankfully it was a slow day.
I should also say that typically in these stories I tell myself I’m not going to emotionally invest in the characters and just enjoy the fantasy and the brilliance that is KT writing erotic scenes. Just my opinion, but I think you’re the best at it. And usually that works for a while, but something always happens that sucks me in, and I begin to root for an outcome while dreading what might be coming.
With Nia and Geoff, it was a scene toward the end of one book, when Geoff is looking down at Nia at the lake with his sister, wondering just who this women he was desperately in love with really was.
Here it was two moments. First, after The Poirot when Maggie leaves upset and Cole chases her down, and her first reaction is still to kiss him and almost have sex with him again. And also the scene where she arrives with Cole without her blue hair and informs Max she wants to go to law school...at Harvard with Cole.
After moments like these, the pull of the erotic scenes fade for me and I focus almost solely on the emotions of the characters, and my own emotions reading it as I desperately cling to signs that the outcome I want to happen will happen. Curious if anyone else has this abrupt change as well. I don’t think it’s a bad thing; I almost feel like I’m reading two different stories, each of which I enjoy in a different way.
When a story grips me, I let it suck me up and I dive right, especially with the way KT writes and how she always explains what everyone is thinking. Emotionally separating myself would likely allow me to view scenes more objectively but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want it to suck me up and the earlier the better.
But that's how KT writes, she's in her characters heads and those are the parts that are so fascinating. That's the part that other writers don't get quite right, they miss a lot of character's thoughts that I have to fill in the blank for. And by doing so, it forces me to think objectively and logically, and that separates me from the characters because most of the time the conclusion I find is shallow and causes me to lose interest. This story gripped me hard and it unsettled me many times. It started from Max's perspective, so that's what latched onto me, and the detail combined with the unknown left me bruised. "What is Maggie thinking right now?" So many moments left Max (and me) in the dark, at the perfect moments, and all he could do was stare at the scene blankly until his eyes turned red and I can't say I'd do much differently in his shoes.
I had to stand up and walk around several times per book to clear my head and remind myself that it's just a story. Of course I sat back down and promptly finished it, because that's what I want to feel. I want that dread and joy and wonder. That's why I read, the emotions that you can feel that are only temporary because it really is just a story. I think I'd have a hard time intentionally separating myself emotionally from the story so I could look at it more objectively, maybe not miss so many clues. Normally I'd be afraid of losing interest but I don't think that would happen with a KT novel, so maybe it's worth a shot. For me, though, the eroticism only intensifies as I focus on the emotions of the characters.
'Navigating the grey area' is a great way to describe it. This story had an unusual premise, but beyond the that, everything else was very real. The emotions, the motives, the manipulation. It makes it very difficult at times because of that. I almost noped out of this story several times but curiosity always got the best of me and I was rewarded for it. So maybe not quite tall enough, or just tall enough for this ride. It's the..indiscretions that make it difficult. It's not as simple as measuring those indiscretions and comparing them, either. How could you even do that? But if I could, and believe me I tried, I would say Max's indiscretions were the lesser of the three evils so naturally I cheered for him. But it's all grey and no person here deserves to be acquitted. And while there may have been a lot of mishaps along the journey for all three characters, in the end, they all safely found their paradise.
That stoicism you describe is something you have more much more than I do. I thought I had a lot, but now maybe not. When I come into this board, my fingers are shaking and I'm eager to talk about whatever thing bothered me but your comments are always sound and sometimes with a touch of a humor. I think anyone has to have a touch of stoicism to make it through this kind of story, and you have it in abundance my friend.
Yea it works until KT puts baby in the amoire then all my logic goes out the window like Mr Spock going into Pon farr. Omg Both a dirty dancing and a trek ref in one...fascinating ..oops i did it again...hmmm was that olympic gold or brittany. Ok stopping now...
One of the many big attractions to KT style is emotional connection i develope with the charactors i read elsewhere how you guys feel about the stories and couldn't agree more. Its a bit theraputic for me. I always try to insert humor it helps remind me it's fiction i just experienced and any similariry to persons living or past is purely coincidnetal. Cole happens to be similar to someone i know. So is pete.
Yea it works until KT puts baby in the amoire then all my logic goes out the window like Mr Spock going into Pon farr. Omg Both a dirty dancing and a trek ref in one...fascinating ..oops i did it again...hmmm was that olympic gold or brittany. Ok stopping now...
One of the many big attractions to KT style is emotional connection i develope with the charactors i read elsewhere how you guys feel about the stories and couldn't agree more. Its a bit theraputic for me. I always try to insert humor it helps remind me it's fiction i just experienced and any similariry to persons living or past is purely coincidnetal. Cole happens to be similar to someone i know. So is pete.
I'm feeling sappy and sentimental now. I loved the song that was played during the dance at the wedding and I love when stories use music. I'm not sure if this blog will let me post a youtube link, but I'd like to share a song that reminds me of the ending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWZ6g-xP9YM
Post songs that remind you of this story, let's make it a chain. My playlist has plenty of room to grow.
Since I enjoy sharing tears with you guys, a couple songs that were personally affected by this story. I've already shared one song by this artist, but this song (which is actually about the forbidden romance of homosexuality and trying to get married in anti-gay cultures) felt like it could be from Maggie's perspectives.
A couple key lines - "Petrol blues" Cole's eyes ... KT likes to refer to eyes by their colors, his "blues" are his blue eyes. The lyrics probably has nothing to do with that but, yeah. "saut dans le vide" means 'into the void' in French. I'm about to write a little blurb on the void left when thinking about the meaning of love from Maggie. "I've found a love to love like no other can" How many love stories start like Maggie and Cole's? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtmrYisoxXA
Finally, after Uncovering Maggie, I kind of thought that Ken was going to have to pick up the pieces from Maggie's situation, and this song came to mind from it. It's about addiction, I believe, but it produces the requisite emotion of trying to help your sister through her trauma.
KT, these are just a couple leftover thoughts from over a year of obsession-
Ravens - I'm struggling to connect the events where ravens appear in this book, but you had them appear twice in the last story, after only appearing in Sharing Maggie. Are you trolling me because I asked you about their significance and you barely care about symbolism? Nietzsche - you're writing erotica, and yet his name and concepts come up twice (that I'm aware of). I have a sneaking suspicion why, but can you elaborate there?
Perspectivism is the most accurate. I don't include mentions of Nietzsche as any sort of purposeful hidden message or anything, but a lot of my characters are exploring moral nihilism, and stepping over the line that marks off constructs of fidelity and honor.
And: The raven is so deep with meaning you can make it appear in a book and argue anything with it, depending on which source culture you wish to attribute. But for the sake of this book I'm referencing the Native American symbolism (the rug where they sit). So change/transformation, holding the truth that you can't see.
In the interest of efficiency for me, I'm honestly narrowly focusing on the specific thoughts I had, which ignores the unbelievable amount of thought others had in this thread. Keep it up everyone!
Just to be clear as I preface this thought, I don't REALLY know shit about Nietzsche's philosophy. I have ideas from people who talk about his philosophy, but I know he was a 'moral nihilist' as you say and definitely saw that relevance in the story as Maggie looks off to Cole's room walls about to engage in 'practice.'
My original thought is the 'abyss' that is created when looking into Maggie's eyes, and I guess it ultimately does relate to perspectivism. That's more accurate than my original thought. Max, as he looks on to Cole and Maggie at the lodge, ends up staring into Maggie's eyes for much of their romp. The 'abyss' feeling is the state that I felt when trying to think about what her smile and rapt eye-contact meant. Mostly, it was the state of feeling like I understood what that meant before that moment, a love that was meant exclusively for Max. That genuine eye contact and smile signified a bond that no one else shared. In this moment, to have that same emotional connection be redefined as he watched Maggie express her love for Cole, created that pit of the stomach ache that I talked about yesterday, the feeling of being 'unsettled.'
It relates to perspectivism though I suppose, doesn't it? Max can't know what Maggie really feels because he isn't her, and what's worse, is Maggie might not fully know either. She was looking back with a love she felt for Max, but possibly didn't realize that it was beginning to pale in comparison to the one growing with Cole. Her inability to recognize that or to minimize it because she does still love him led to some unrelenting torture trying to find that warm feeling that came from Maggie's eyes on his. Because she kept doing it, all it did was keep confusing me because though it might mean the same thing to Maggie, it's value to her and to Max by extension, was clearly changing.
JL23 An interloper's input into these impressive insights: That scene over pizza absolutely crushed me. I admit I pulled back after that. When Max didn't take a stand, I had to retreat. I wanted so much for him to be strong, object, get angry, even leave her. Nothing. Maybe the role of the handsome Cole who could read women's sexual desires and fufill them just pissed me off. The idea of a guy who ALL (I believe caps were used in the story too) women wanted just brought out my insecurities. I skimmed a lot after that to medicate the inevitable pain Max would experience. Such a wuss.
Wess...welcome to the forum. Yeah, that scene really hit me. Still the worst for me is her confession of love for Cole at the lodge...I think even he was shocked at the depth of Maggie’s feelings for him.
On Cole, I think there’s always going to be a little “fantasy” built in with the bull. They’re often a little too perfect in order to make the distinction between the beta and make them real threats. I think Cole was very human in other respects, and genuinely loved Max. I had my moments with him, but I like him. And those parts of Max I totally get...as I said he reminds me of me, particularly at that age. He loved her too much to leave.
Pizza scene hit me hardest. Lodge scene was a heavy blow, but by then I was ready for the worst. Also wasn't the only time Max frustrated the crap out of me by not saying anything.
I felt like an interloper when I started posting here a few chapters back. It was kinda shocking reading a bunch of comments of people praising Cole when I thought of him the way you did and also thought that he was a complete shit for intentionally manipulating his best friend so he could steal his girl. To be fair, it wasn't cut and dry at that point, I just had my suspicions.
But reading all those comments opened me up to be more understanding of their behavior and how it effects the rest of their lives. I think I might have called Cole 'evil' at one point, or something similar. I don't think that anymore, generally he seems like a kind person, but that one thing he did was so offensive to me. I don't think I'll ever come around to liking him.
There s a flipping point when cole goes from "well this is fun" to "wow this could be permanent" KT does a good job of hiding that point. Somewhere in there i started bot likeing Cole. Possible at the video of the cheating confession...
WA - I sometimes wonder if I read KT's stories from true beginning to end if I could give them the same level of thought in their individual parts that I am able to do based on her release style. And to be honest with myself, probably not. I feel like I would fail to miss the significance of little interactions that take place in Tempting or Sharing, etc. because the story continued. So I can see how if (since you were new) that you would maybe overlook or whatever some piece that could change your mind if you were forced (like yours truly) to obsess on them for weeks and weeks.
I really would like to hope that loving Cherry Blossoms would have still happened. Have you started that yet? Youve got to!
Not saying that the release style is the cause, you're entitled to the opinion and I wouldn't disagree with it, Cole even admits he originally was trying to take Maggie for himself. That said, regardless now that you're getting used to her release style, you're fucked. :)
I was wrong about Cole doing something evil, but I still hold that he's a piece of shit. Best friends just don't do that kind of thing to each other. And the fact that he seemingly "loved" Max only makes his actions more offensive. The amount of selfishness and self entitlement needed in those moment to focus on that path of decisions for weeks is insane to me. He even apologizes to Max for trying to sleep with her in his dorm room. Was that him truly feeling bad about what he was doing or was he trying to get Max off his back so he could work Maggie a little longer? I don't know. Those things implicate way different things. Even if its the only bad thing he ever does, it's enough for me to never trust him ever again.
@John C, I was suspicious when he started getting frisky with her in the dormroom. The "fake cheating" scene is what made it obvious, though. Also highlighted Max's inability to speak up. Maybe you guys can help me out with this one. Why did Max agree to that? What scenario plays out in that hotel room where Max is happy that he agreed with Cole to let it happen? Cuz I'm drawing blanks.
@WorldsApart...I think Max agreed to the hotel room because Cole (the master manipulator) led him to believe this was another fantasy of Maggies. I mean was it? or was that video of Cole coercing her his fantasy? Was this a cruel joke of haha i got your girl?
Yeah, it wasn't a fantasy of Maggie's. Her reaction and the fact that she chose Cole and not Max (knowing their principles) is evidence of that, at least.
I know why he allowed it to happen. It's just that there's no scenario where Max wins there. I get that he has hangups with Maggie and can't seem to express himself to her and doesn't want to lose her so he goes along with her decision making, but why did those hangups extent to Cole? Privately?
Was that situation really acceptable to Max? Him assuming that Cole was right and she wanted to cheat. Sitting there in the closet, watching it happen and watching her not care about doing it? How in the world did he agree to that when THAT is the best case scenario? That's not at all what he wanted, yet, in private conversation with Cole, he allowed himself to be tricked into a no win situation. Just Cole, probably sweaty from lacrosse practice, calling him "bro".
That was enough? Really? That's when I was like..Alright dude, you lost me. I was with you for a while but holy fuck. Say anything.
wow...I guess I've been away too long! I have a lot of catching up on comments. First , KT a very good read as usual...BUT I am saddened and disappointed in the finale. Why can't the cuck ever win?? I mean I guess Geoff & Pete sort of win in the end, but the heartache they endure to get there far outweighs winning. I had high hopes for Max's plea "Please don't take her from me", but I think I had a feeling at the opening when looking at the alter Maggie was not walking to Marry Max..but i read on...
I was intrigued by the scenes in the cottage and was shocked and impressed by Coles embrace to share..but i knew he was after the WIN. He may have loved Max at one time, but his backhanded comments along this journey and the ending of the last book showed his true colors. He was after Maggie he just had to wait until she was ready to completely give max up, he knew what he was doing, master manipulator that he is. SMH so disappointed that Max could ignore his kinky nature to keep the girl
As for Keely, I kind of remember her from early on in the series, but I would have liked more background on how they hooked up, how she became to know about the 3some and how she handled max being in love with another yet stayed to get him to love her. But, does he love her? Is she just a fill-in for what he once had? Can he really love again after Maggie? Seems unreal. And her, how does she stand being the other woman? Can she truly believe he will ever lover her the way he loves (STILL LOVES) Maggie? As a woman I couldn't play second fiddle to ANYONE!
UGH I have so much to say...
KT know that I still love you, and like your characters I'll be faithful to you as always...just sad :(
DW let me just say I see a lot of the points you are making. But after reading it a few more times I came around on what happens here. You can read my many, many (many) posts scattered through here. I won’t go into everything again.
In short, I think Max’s journey in this chapter gets him to the point where he is fully committed to Keely. I think he was always in love with her, but there was still a piece of him that couldn’t completely let go of Maggie. I think he does at the end. So while when I first read it I was sad for him, now I’m happy.
Also on Cole, I agree with you I hated him at the end of the last book, but I came back around on him here. What I think: In the last book, he was coming to terms with the fact that not only did he love Maggie, she was the one for him. For a guy like Cole, a player, that was probably a new feeling, one he didn’t fully know what to do with. I think that was all he could see, and it clouded a lot of his actions toward Max...he didn’t see his best friend, only the guy standing in the way of him and Maggie.
I think at the lodge, when Maggie tells them her feelings, Cole knows he’s won. And I think that allows him to soften to Max and see his friend again. And see that his friend is incredibly hurt, and will be even more so if they just ace him out. So he agrees to the threesome again, and over the course of the ensuing years doesn’t try to push Max out.
I think he cares about and loves Max. There was a time he couldn’t see that, but at the end here he does.
LOL I have just spent the last 3 hours reading every reply to these many threads on the book. We lost power for a few days so I had some things to get in order!
Hey JL..i see what you might mean about Cole, but have you thought of his reaction when Maggie asked Max to "Come with us, Come with us to Harvard. I don't want to be without you." Cole was NOT on board with that, wonder why? Probably because it was always his intention to complete the steal process while they were away from Max.
I went back and read that, and I think there isn’t enough information to gauge what Cole is thinking. He only says “lots of work opportunities in Boston.” You can possibly read that as him trying to tip the scales to keep Max from Harvard. But it’s not like Boston is far from Cambridge, so I also think that could be Cole trying to offer a way from Max to stay close to them without having to go to Harvard per se. Cole knows Max and is aware it was never his dream to go to graduate school, that he wanted to work first.
For me, Cole probably could have pushed out Max anytime he wanted in those 4 or so years after the lodge, before Max meets Keely and everyone knows their place. Maybe he doesn’t because he fears Maggie will raise hell and maybe even leave him, but I choose to believe based on the evidence that he didn’t try because he loves Max and didn’t want to hurt him anymore than he already had.
DW, I am so glad to see your comments! I should have known you were right there with us (at least reading-wise) this whole time. I only want to say that I am glad someone else sees the flaws in the ending with Max and Keely and their long-term future. I haven't been able to really dig deep into what the comments others have made about this topic, and I don't disagree with their long-term possibility, but given the events of the extremely recent past (that is before Max and Keely had their series ending conversation) there really was nothing to prove that both of them were ready to truly commit to one another exclusively. Yeah, right now, and I believe that it is absolutely possible that they could, but it's too soon to tell. And, given the evidence and history, I have my doubts.
I'm glad KT did that too, by the way (ending it at Maggie and Cole's honeymoon), because it's satisfying to only a point. Then I have to turn around and think, "hey, wait a minute..."
@DW- during the read i grew to not like Cole very mucb. Then i started not liking maggie then i lost tespect for Max at different points. So i really had to sort out a few things for myself. The firat if which was this wasnt Coles game. Cole went into this reluctantly. He did his due diligence. Maggie openned up the can of worm/s first with her dream lover named cole and the blow job on the beach. The first crack appears.
Once he saw max on board with what was happening. It was game on. Anything he did after that was to be with maggie more ans more. Which means less and less for max. So i coukdnt really blame cole, i couldnt figuire Maggie out because she pushed back to make sure was included and coniltinued to profess hsr love for him. Max itked me for not being more confrontational. With maggie playing both sides i couldnt figuire out who she was gonna choose so i resigned to hoping it was the one she loved most and loved her back. Yea i still feel they Mags and cole strung Max along for a few years unwilling to rip the off the bandaid as it were. Because they both loved him they coukdnt bave him lurking in thr shadows (or closet) all hurt, sad and lonely. I woukd have liked to have been a fly on ths wall when maggie breaks the news to max she was gonna marry cole. Or cole tells max hes gonna propose. Dobyou think he did it in front of max. They all go out for dinner together and cole gets on his knee. The food thing is he has a gurl who will be faithful to him now. Both of them, all of them.
To be fair, Max was with Keely for a few years before Cole/Maggie got married. So thankfully he didn't have to confront shit like that. Can you imagine, though? Holy shit..
As for Mad & Keely, as in true KT form we don't actually know how that all came about..so it's not really fair to say it was ok to marry Cole & Maggie since Max & Keely were already together for 2 plus years...I hope for Keely sake Max wasn't forced into a love he doesn't want nor fully commit to...I mean seriously as a woman, is Keely really ok with his love for Maggie?
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY WOULD HE LET HER SLEEP WITH COLE??? And Maggie for that matter?
Yea, like I said I wish we saw more of Max and Keely's early days. But we see Max's struggle with it. I think when we pick it up, he is truly in love with Keely, but there is still that part of him mourning the loss of Maggie. But I think he gets there fully in the end.
I don't see it as a love forced on him. Maggie and Cole just made the introduction, what Keely and Max have they built themselves. If he wasn't into Keely, if she didn't do so much for him, he wouldn't still have been with her at this point. You can see when he's with her alone...that relationship is not one he doesn't really want, where he's just going through the motions.
I agree with you on Keely, but there is evidence she's at least a little concerned. The scene towards the end where Maggie asks her to leave her alone with Max, you see concern. As KT said in an earlier post to my question on that...Keely is young and understands heartbreak. She's willing to help Max and wait for him to get there fully on his own because she's in love with him and he's worth the wait. But if he was still pining for Maggie a few more years down the road, I don't think she would stand for it.
On Keely with Cole...Max is a cuckold, he's excited by seeing a woman he loves be taken by the "better" lover. That hasn't changed. But he's 27 now, older and more mature, and more secure in Keely's love for him. He knows she's not leaving him for Cole, and Cole has Maggie so he's not going to try and take Keely. Having her sleep with Cole once in a while is just a fun game.
With Maggie, KT talked about that in a post. If it was totally up to her, Cole probably wouldn't be sleeping with Keely. But she allows it because she loves Max and knows he's into it, and isn't really threatened by Keely...she knows she's in love with Max. Plus it allows her to safely explore some of her other kinks.
Wouldn't that be something, though, if Cole tried to steal Keely? I'd come to this board fuming and everyone would start telling me how much Cole loves Max. Hahahaha...Oh Max, I'm so sorry. Feels good to laugh about it.
My take on Max and Keely's early days: Maggie spent a lot of time with Keely, and heard a lot about her love life. She knew Keely dated "assholes" and was tired of them. She wanted to meet a nice guy, a guy who would be there for her. So they make the intro to Max.
Max likely knew exactly what they were doing and fought it initially. Keely probably saw he was still in love with Maggie. But they still hit it off initially, so both said why not and dated without any pressure for a while...maybe just hung out together as friends, away from Cole and Maggie.
Over time, Max began to see how much Keely got him, how she was devoted to him and making him happy. He fell in love with the girl Keely was, and needed her in his life. But he couldn't quite shake the sense of loss over Maggie. For Keely, she probably quickly saw the Max we do and fell in love. She knew Maggie loomed in the background, but she saw how Max was with her when it was just them. So she then set about winning him over completely. She took the risk that Max could break her heart.
@WA if Cole ever tried to steal Keely, he is a total asshole and every bad thing anyone has ever said about him is justified. I certainly wouldn't even attempt to defend him then.
Also on Maggie with Keely and Cole, notice Maggie remains in control of that at all times. She stops it before Cole comes. She tells Keely "don't you think you've had your fun now?" When her husband comes, its inside her and Max and Keely get to be the creampie cuckolds.
Translation: I'm in charge here, at all times. She'll let her Maxy have his fun and get his rocks off, but she won't let it get past a certain point.
As for their foursome, I did notice the trepidation that you talked about from Keely. But other that, none of my spidey senses were alarmed at what was happening. That scene seemed more like suitable closure for Max's relationship with Maggie (for me, at least). It showed that they've moved on enough to view sex as just as a good time. Even Keely with Cole -- just didn't bother me. Keely had proved to me at that point that she was devoted to Max, something Maggie never quite did. She did at first but then proved that her words carry less meaning than I'd like.
Then their private conversation after they left, showed me that they're just friends. Didn't read into more than that.
As far as the trepidation, given where Max started, he's on the path to be free of Maggie. I have no reason to think Keely and Max can't go the distance. And Keely is an angel for riding the storm.
Completely agree WA, it’s a fun game for all of them now. And they are all very conscious of making sure everyone is good with what’s happening. No reason to be worried.
And I get the sense this is something they only do every once in awhile. I don’t think they’re doing this every weekend. Most of the time they’re just hanging out together like any other couples who are great friends do.
Just seeing the question on Maggie and Cole getting engaged, and how it impacted Max. I think that almost certainly happened after he started dating Keely. Once they saw Max was in love and moving on without them, they probably felt it was OK for them to move forward as well. Though I'm sure it was also hard for Max, like the wedding was. But he had Keely...I bet it drew those two even closer together.
In reading through everyone’s thoughts the last few days, and especially the ones who waited to comment, I kind of think your thoughts on the story boil down to 2 fundamental questions. Believe me, there are a lot of other questions and thoughts this story has created, but I think there are 2 fundamental ones everyone feels one way or other on. One is more about the reader’s perception of the story I think, and the other is about the reader’s perception of what kind of ending this is for Max.
The first fundamental is what your thoughts were on what Cole and Maggie choose to do post lodge...keep Max involved as a 3some while simultaneously growing closer as a couple and falling in love. If you feel that was an act of kindness, that it gave Max the time to heal and find himself, then you probably see this as a happy ending. If you feel they should have just “ripped the band aid off” and broke it off with him, then you probably feel a little unsettled at the end.
The second fundamental is Do you think Max is truly happy, and committed to Keely on that balcony at the end? Or do you think he is still pining for Maggie, at least partly, and will never be able to commit? If you think he’s happy and committed, then this is a happy ending, a real happy one. If you don’t, then this ending is still quite sad.
I think everyone knows how I feel, but I fully admit I was on the other side of both questions after I first read it so I understand those who are. This story really makes you think, there are always “grey areas” as someone put it in KT stories, but there may be even more here. And those can be really fun to break down, as the comments here show.
So as the conversation on this inevitably starts to slow down, and we get ready for the next journey, thanks again to KT for providing such a thought provoking experience, and a wonderful story. I think everyone can agree with that no matter what side of the line you fall on with those 2 questions.
yea gotta say I'm with WA on this I wished they would have ripped the band aid off. I think that as friends do they'd move apart but I think over time they'd come back together again, as friends do. we know max and Cole are best buds but there has to be others not as best but at least buds. Max could hang with the xbox crowd for a time. They would occasionally bump into one another on campus at least until grad. I think that those moments would be healing times. bringing them back together. unless max specifically makes Maggie and Cole sneak up on him. maybe Maggie donates some pussy for a pity party a couple of times. the threesome takes place but with an understanding of whose who.
Was happy for Max to have an understanding, smoking hot rebounder. I think Keely wont have to wait long for the whole max/Maggie thing to fall away. When not around Maggie Max will be very content and happy every time they are together he will have to keep growing a thicker and thicker hide. At the honeymoon the wounds are still healing the scabs are gone but the pink flesh is still tender. Time heals all he'll get over Maggie and probably is most of the way there by the wedding.
John you hit on a good point...we re-enter things during the wedding and honeymoon. Of course that was going to drag up painful memories for Max. I’m sure on a normal day, when he was just hanging with Keely, he wasn’t even thinking about Maggie and his “loss” at all. He was probably just enjoying being with Keely...clearly they have a very fun playful relationship, and a more than OK sex life.
Also Keely is so patient and understanding with him because she understands this particular time was always going to be hard, and it’s probably not something that happens a lot. If it did maybe she would question the relationship more.
Captain obvious here. Cole and maggie knew they were going to get married at some point. So i wonder how long they waited before telling Max. That he had keely was probably not too much of a factor as max was probably trying to hide his feelings from everyone anyway.
Some where max has to give up on his notion that he and maggie will have a future as a married couple. Thats probably when he starts showing affection to keely and spends less time with maggie and cole and more time with just Keely.
Correct me if im wrong but Max didnt meet keely in year one but year three i think. So Took probably couple of years for max to date Keely her steady patient approach to max helpes to push the idea that cole and maggie are a couple.
That first year with max had to be rough on Keely though. Can you imagine going on a date with someone and having the Marta expeeience every night. "...And this picture here is me and mags hiking up the hill. Heres one of us bike riding at her parents place...." That Keely didnt hang herself is a testament to her character.
John I think I replied to a similar question in the thread, but I can’t find it now lol. But here goes again, my best guess is they didn’t get engaged until after Max and Keely were seriously dating. Did they know they wanted to before that? Probably. But my guess is they didn’t out of respect for Max.
KT said at the time of the wedding Max and Keely were dating for about 2 years, and had known each other for a while before that. So I think they probably hung out for a while, just as friends and then began dating seriously. I’m sure Keely got there before Max did, but he clearly decided at a certain point to get serious with her.
I also don’t think it was the “Maggie show” while they spent time together. I’m sure it was initially, but I bet it didn’t last a year. Max and Keely seem to have a really fun playful and loving relationship. I bet when they were together he didn’t even mention Maggie much. It’s just when moments like the wedding come up, he can’t help but feel that loss. Probably why Keely is so understanding, as most times she sees the Max who is uttterly devoted and in love with her.
Like I mentioned offhandedly in one of my day late comments, I absolutely loved the moment where Keely, Connor, and Max are all watching the dance. Keely is such a beautiful pillar of strength for Max while also being lighthearted. Her laying into Connor for the umpteenth time about fucking up Max's engagement surprise was such an awesome comic relief moment to how heavy the dance and it's implications were.
Nice synopsis JL but I'm feeling WA. They should have been honest with Max. I'm inclined to see their actions as asuaging their guilt. Maggie was downright cruel in the pizza scene and brutal at the lodge. I know she's young and warped by her repressive parents but still has to take responsibility for at least incredible insensitivity. Regarding the ending with Max's new found love Keely, I needed more time to make that believable. It felt like a nice geature from KT but I wasn't invested. Oh yeah, I will read anything KT writes. She pulls emotions from me like no other author.
Also not a Cole fan but I think KT wants us to like him. I think KT likes him (heh, heh), but he broke the always somewhat flexible “Bro Code”. I can get aound that. Stealing your best friend's fiance? Nope. He's an asshole. But I don't judge too harshly. Were I in his position and fell in love? I might be an asshole.
Wess, generally agree about Cole. I think he figured to take Maggie away even before he thought about a permanent arrangement. That was just big footing (or big somethinging, kt) Max, because he could. The Bro Code may not be quite black letter law (hmmmm, back to the bar exam again) but breaking it should have consequences, and for Cole there are none.
My only defense of Maggie's behavior in the lodge and with the pizza is that Max should have taken the ring off once he learned that Maggie was a lot more than he could handle, after the closet view. He should have had enough self awareness to realize that intelligence, deceit, subterfuge and craft cannot always substitute for a big dick. But who wanted this to end five chapters ago?
I can see those points Wess...I excuse some of it because they're young and don't quite understand these complicated feelings. And its a complicated swirl of emotions that lead them to do what they do, some of them were for Max, and some of them were selfish too no doubt. There wasn't a perfect answer here I think, they did the best they could but they're human.
On Keely, since we don't really see her until the end, we don't have the history with her, and her history with Max, that we do with the other characters. Their love didn't blossom and grow before our eyes, so we're asked to accept some fundamentals about their relationship. Makes me want that Keely and Max flashback even more...maybe as an "Easter egg" in the next story...Easter is coming up after all.
On Cole, my relationship with him...its complicated. I agree with you at the end...maybe the noble thing to do was for him to walk away, but how many of us could say we'd actually do that?
Donkatsu: Interesting about Cole. Did he get everything with no consequences? I suppose he did. He got Maggie, he saved his relationship with Max, he’s running in the Becker’s world which is exciting. Hey, that happens in life sometimes.
But I would suggest his consequences may be down the road. He’s kind of “stuck” at Oxbow now. I think it’s safe to say that Max is going on to have a really successful career on Wall St...he’s going to make a lot of money, and it’s all on his own. Cole will have access to money, but it won’t really be his. And he’s going to see up close just how good Max has it. How’s that make him feel 10-15 years down the road? How’s it make Maggie feel?
Not saying any of this would happen, or that I’d wish for it to (I wouldn’t)...but maybe that’s his consequence.
@ JL23 One issue that I see with the first thing you said (about them not understanding their feelings) is that is you're sort of excluding the fact that Cole was in love with Maggie. He was, I don't doubt it. But if you're accepting that he was, you also have to accept that some things that Maggie and Cole chose to do cannot be written off as just inexperience and were done knowingly and intentionally, likely to the detriment of Max's development (imo). It's selectively choosing to accept something as a hard truth, that something often being just as likely to be a wrong choice because of inexperience, but not other things. I realize you're not saying they did the right thing, only that you're excusing what they chose to do. But I wanted to say that anyway.
Cole's situation is complicated. Maybe there is no situation where he doesn't come out smelling like dog shit because if he loves Maggie then you gotta go after Maggie. But I think theres a scenario where he doesn't manipulate Max into thinking it's his fault.
Also, Cole would be stuck at Oxbow and with Carol anyway. Not really a punishment, just baggage. Donkatsu is right, I think. He violated the bro code and got off scot-free. That's because of the kindness of Max.
@WA I see what you’re saying. For me, I don’t think there was a right, or perfect answer on what to do if you’re Maggie and Cole. I’m sure they consciously made some decisions on what to do about Max, but I guess I don’t necessarily see that as bad. And whether it was worse for Max is ultimately everyone’s personal opinion. I don’t think so, but I understand the reasons why you think it was.
Was Cole manipulating Max at times? Yes...but I think in ways they were all manipulating each other at various points. No one is innocent there IMO.
That makes sense, I see where you're coming from. But just for clarity, I think there was a right answer. Come clean, the earliest as possible because the worst thing you can do to someone is waste their time (short of murdering them). That's just my opinion. I won't drag on about this anymore, that was more for the newcomers sake than yours.
No one is innocent but I'd say Max is the least guilty. I think Max visiting Ken in secret and being in the closet pales in comparison to what Cole did.
@WA. @JL You are right that Cole will pay a price for all of this, as he must toe the Becker family line and bow obsequiously to Martin and Carol, unless . . . . he is such a good player that he enlists Carol on his side against Martin.
Somewhere in between Cole and Tyler lies Casanova - not a big-dicked meathead like Tyler who just wants to take over someone else's love and life, and not a master player like Cole, who sees an objective worth sacrificing the game for. The Casanova wants to take someone's love away for a while, especially from his friends. He thinks he leaves the girl with a smile and fond memories and figures (1) he has shown himself to be the better man than the cuckold; and (2) enjoys the cuckold's anguish and torment at least a little bit, maybe a lot, and expects to interact with him socially in the future, adding a certain frisson to those future gatherings. Cole has at least a little of that in him, his conversations with Maggie showed that.
In my experience, expecting the woman or girl, as with Maggie, to stand up for the existing relationship is silly. Some girls like to see their men fight it out, even after they are "committed" and lots of men will not take no for an answer from a woman. It is the man's job to lay down the law, Bro Code or no. I speak from personal experience. Max is not capable of doing that with Cole or with anyone else who might be a credible rival. kt understood that about Max and engineered a second best solution for him and Keely, who has apparently been pumped and dumped enough in her short life to have acquired some wisdom on the subject.
Also the thoughts on Max and the band-aid scenario, I’m thinking back to my thoughts on Geoff...and it was the opposite to how I feel about Max. But I think that’s because Geoff was a 35-year old man who had lived life, and was dealing with the potential of a horrible truth. He needed to rip the “band-aid” off and find his way on his own, and he was mature and experienced enough to do so. But that was a really painful journey.
Max is still just a kid, I don’t know if he has the maturity and experience to do what Geoff does, what Geoff goes through. I really think it breaks him for a long time. The other way wasn’t perfect, but I still say it was the right one for Max.
Ahh, I think they're a little more mature than you think. Max being who he is, he would have forgiven them and they would have begged him to. With time, of course.
The things that make them friends would still be there. And I think in that scenario, we might have seen real, proper remorse from Cole for how things went down. Maybe in that scenario he becomes human to me and I can forgive him. And then..a few years later after Max had his fun with Marta and maybe a few other girls, our duo can introduce him to Keely.
@WA I can see that line of reasoning. Perhaps Max would have forgiven them and came back to them on his own. Knowing Max I’m sure he would have. Like I said, there’s no perfect answer, no way not to have Max go through pain and loss.
On Cole/Maggie and remorse, I would offer than we’re not privy to it as we don’t see that portion. When we pick it up 6 years later, they’re happy cause they’re getting married, and Max is in a pretty good place with a great woman he loves.
If we saw them at Harvard, especially pre Keely, I suspect we would see quite a bit of that. But we come back at a happy moment. Maybe I’m excusing them with that, though. Again I don’t know, everyone will see it a little differently.
I'm personally for the ripping off the band aid too. I've been trying to rationalize that maybe that's just because I'm into monogamy, but these cats really aren't. So I don't know, maybe the band aid rip isn't necessary when they can have the physical fun they were having an ween each other off of the emotional connection.
I don't buy what I'm saying at all though, the emotions just naturally come out of the passion of sex, especially when it meant more than the act itself for so long. Max prolonged his suffering by allowing himself to continue being so close to them, like THAT.
That's what I'm missing! Remorse! I know they all told their truths at the lodge but I got very little in the way of remorse or regret from Maggie and Cole. I want to feel their pain and sadness. I felt so much of it from Max. OK. I feel better. I guess I should go back to my job now.
@Wess...you may be my new favorite on this blog..and i have many!
Exactly>>You said---"Also not a Cole fan but I think KT wants us to like him. I think KT likes him (heh, heh), but he broke the always somewhat flexible “Bro Code”. I can get around that. Stealing your best friend's fiance? Nope. He's an asshole. " I'm sorry I don't think after the last book when he kicked Max from the room while he & Maggie got busy....I was already not a fan, but I didn't have hatred..after that line I had hatred! Sorry KT...
Cole is not the remorsing type, he's a "playa." He's still playing, but in a different game, with the Beckers and even with Maggie. He was firmly set on taking Maggie away from Max the minute Max let him in the door as the "safe" alternative to Jay. His interior dialogues tell us that unequivocally. That said, I agree with kt and the rest who see that Max could never hold on to Maggie once the Jay thing happened and Maggie learned that longer, wider, bolder, and higher T is better.
If Max and Keely move away to raise their smaragdine-eyed children in the countryside or if Keely tires of Cole, will he pick up another gal for the occasional romp? Almost certainly, and almost certainly the wife or SO of a friend. That's who Cole is.
Just to clarify, Cole initially just intended to be a Casanova and take Maggie for a while. As kt and others noted, Cole did not change his objective to permanent displacement of Max until he went to RI (and especially after Carol gave Cole a tour of the playroom). It takes two to tango and Cole and Maggie started pumping each other up regarding the nature of their relationship (hey, get your minds out of the gutter, just because it's erotica doesn't mean everything is sexual, or maybe it does). As someone noted in this or another Maggie thread quoting Oscar Wilde: "Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power." That works pretty well here.
Have to be the first to comment here too. The little survey was fun...think everyone could guess my answers at this point. Only one I had to think about is Cole the greatest “bull” ever...it would depend on your definition of great I guess. I’m sure many here would say no cause he took the girl, and no bull should ever do that.
ReplyDeleteFor me, he is though. From the jump I knew he was different because he had a previous friendship to Max that predated his feelings for Maggie...that made this a particularly interesting, and messy combo. But it also made him more in tune with the feelings of the cuckold, some exceptions noted. Any of the other bulls would have just taken the girl without a second thought if they could.
Only one in the ballpark is Dino, and it’s not really close. He developed an understanding and respect for Geoff by the end, and I don’t think he would have wanted to blow up his life and steal Nia. Rocco and Tyler, forget it...Reza, nah.
The other that comes to mind is Renny, as he is also close friends with Nelson. But the dynamic between Natalie and him is different, I don’t think Natalie was carrying a secret torch for him like Maggie was for Cole. And I don’t think he would be as caring as Cole if he decided he wanted Natalie, he would just take her.
So Cole it is...till we meet the next candidate.
Yeah, I really like Cole, my second favorite in terms of actual likeability, and in that sense what do you think of Atticus, JL? Have you read the Obsessed series yet? I now have a little bit of a chance to explain why i picked him over Cole after KT asked us this before. I just think Atticus is much more put together and honest with himself and others. I guess it remains to be seen if his encounters with Gretch get too nostalgic or if he loses his indifferent connection with Amy, but Atticus is a professional with a successful career and no bullshit and honest. I can't wait until KT picks that back up.
DeleteFor transparency, I hope Atticus loses his honest edge, so in that sense, if that happens mmm, still Atticus because he was a fellow nerd in college. I appreciate Cole's niceness as a total jock, but he is a kiss and tell guy. Atticus is classy AF
DeleteI really really like Atticus. He would be in there for me as greatest bull, but I didn’t include him in my rankings as that was a slightly different story.
DeleteI would love to see another chapter of Obsessed. But I sense it may end your thoughts about Atticus being all nice. I left that last published chapter with the distinct impression there was a story to be told about Atticus, his fathers wife, and their young kids. A story I desperately want to hear by the way...lol.
Oh yeah, was that you who correctly pointed out that there might have been something going on between Atticus and his father's girlfriend?
DeleteSome Maury shit right thur ...
Man, I think hate is a strong word for these characters and their decisions even though I think many of them were selfish at the expense of people they claimed to care about. Maybe that's just me.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally - there was some discussion in last thread about Maggie sort of "delaying" a decision as opposed to consciously stringing Max along, but I don't think she should get bonus points for poor planning. A person in that situation is emotionally incentivized to not take the time to sit down and make a choice or even address in her own mind that she should make a choice- why should she if she can just not think about it and just keep having her cake and eating it too? I'm not saying it's purposeful, but it is self-centred.
Perhaps the way to look at those questions on Maggie and Cole is “Do you hate what they did?l or maybe more pointedly “Do you hate how they did it?” You can not hate a person, but dislike a decision they made or how they chose to handle it.
DeleteFor me, the answer is still no, I don’t hate it. It was an imperfect solution to an impossible situation, but in this case the best one. They both knew they couldn’t just cut Max loose for various reasons we already discussed.
IMO he would have been in more pain stewing in NY unaware while their love blossomed in Boston, than he was seeing it up close and personal and realizing it was the real thing.
Like to point out Question 2 is a trick question/s and has a yes/no no/yes answer.
DeleteOtherwise i dont hate any of these peeps. They just muddleing along like everyone making their mistakes right where it should be, in their youth.
Now years from now i can see Maggie after waving good bye to max and family after a christmas party. Returning to Carol and cole in deep conversation and martin nodding his head. Maggie may wonder what it would have been like to walk out the door and away from New Tara on Maxs arm instead of keely. But then her son maxy jumps into her arms and all that fluff is fogotten.
This reminded me of another moment in the story, when she is looking at Max and dreaming of what it would have been like being Max's wife. She describes it as "not bad...not bad at all." This is the definition of a backhanded compliment lol. I would want my wife to describe being with me as something more than "not bad."
DeleteHi everyone -
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I'm late, did something happen when I was gone? lol I've missed so fucking much because of my life right now. I've had late hours of work and when Amazon decided to dangle a KT novel in front of my face at 1am in the morning, I thought it would be better to try to read it at a skim pace and not sleep, rather than take the time to really read a story. The result is literally an hour of sleep, and it fucking sucked! And I didn't do her story justice at all.
The next day was work, work, work and pass out. This is the end of a saga that I've been pining for since last year, I needed time to really read, and digest. And try and fail not to read people's reactions on here. I did okay, and I skimmed the story anyways as I read them, but still, failed! That being said, if what I write here has already been hashed out, explained, better elaborated, I apologize.
I'm all over the place with this one, and over the course of discussion with you guys I'll hopefully make my opinion clear. Let me make one thing clear though, I love this story and KT Morrison. There isn't a 'but' though I do think there are some things that I need to say which would seem a little bit like I didn't like it, I totally did like it.
First things first, Cole marries Maggie - it really did feel like they were meant to be together, Cole knew Maggie so well as a friend, he did all the things Max did, but just had that little extra which made him special in Maggie's heart. He won. I don't know how to really grapple with the weird weaving of a polyamorous relationship which I'll get to later, but it might be important to acknowledge in that thought "He won" because no she just loves Cole more or whatever, but ultimately it seems like Cole was the better choice for Maggie.
I know I'm the most vocal (I think I can just leave it at that, but I'll add unnecessary qualifiers) proponent for the 'bull takes the girl' scenario, even though I really don't ever relate to them, but KT is unbelievable at making me want the husband/boyfriend character to be happy. It might just be that she makes real people, so real that empathy is just the natural reaction, but for whatever the cause, I felt for Max.
It's why I don't understand why Maggie strung him along when her heart was spreading to someone else so strongly. I guess it's because Max liked it too? Maggie likes Max being there with her (thank you, it adds to the scene), but why doesn't she think it through? She knows Max was hurting trying to come up with a way to keep her by letting her explore once he saw her with Jay. It needed to stop because of what Maggie was intending when she was with Cole. Why did she like Max's eyes on her so much as she let herself be taken away from him, repeatedly? They're all friends, but I think that Maggie should have shut him out of her sex life.
Honestly though, but what do I know? I just don't understand their lifestyle, and so trying to comprehend Max's servitude to 'sexual suffering' as he describes it, Maggie wanting to be alone with him for an intimate blowjob, letting him know first that she's pregnant, it was all sweet, but I couldn't relate to it. I really tried.
I don't believe Maggie's mom saw the security footage first, I'm curious what other people think. I seriously doubt Carol would have reacted to seeing that footage as some sort of key to her plan to get her to law school. I have to laugh at the concept, "DP sex in the music room, eh? It's all going according to plan" *cackles* Hell no, Carol sees that and it's *ring ring* "Maggie we have to talk about the men in your life."
I'll quick add some more thoughts, below, then I'll try to read others comments and catch up when I get a moment.
I had a lot of thoughts in this and I'll start with a couple:
Delete1) Max and Keely were sweet, but I don't know if they will last. I admit I saw this from other people's comments but I agree with it, Max is inexplicably linked to Maggie so long as they stay close like they are, and while that continues to develop further, Keely's relationship with Max will have to lag behind and catch up. Maggie talked about the possibility of her developing resentment towards Cole if Max cut them off, and I think the same holds true for Max and Maggie. Differences of course, but similar. Plus, Keely might be understanding of their lifestyle, but how can she really embrace and understand what they are doing? It just seems like she's having a bit of fun because it's different, and they're kind of "the cool kids," yes, I think age is a factor for her.
Again, what do I know? I'm boring and want Keely for myself if I had her.
2) What does Cole mean that Maggie 'wasn't serious' at the Poirot in DM? And how did Maggie agree with that statement? One of the central reasons why she needed out of there was because it was so crazy that she knew Max saw her share something powerful and private with Cole. Meant for only them, how is that anything other than serious?
3) More generally, here are the pros and cons to the "truth" game. I absolutely loved the emotionally release of so many pressing questions being answered simultaneously, and it's the last story in a mega saga, so closure is really, really appreciated. It is a logistical impossibility to make each of these revelations more gradual in this story, too. I just think it's too easy, and way too close to the last moment that made them angry at each other so much. 10 days without any communication is enough time for Max to put aside his jealousies enough to let Cole have honest to goodness love making with Maggie while she smiles at Max? Maggie could really conclude that she wants both Cole and Max? Cole could admit he wants to steal Maggie from Max and he's over that feeling now? Too easy. Necessary. But too easy.
I'll have plenty of good things to say about this story in a little bit, but there's burning questions for me!
2) Cole used his recording of Maggie saying she'd like to cheat but not really cheat to convince max to let him be alone with her. However, when maggie recorded that video with him, she was only humoring him, not meaning the things she said on camera. Internally, she did kind of want to be with Cole alone but wasn't ready yet to be 'broken' like that. Had max seen their whole interaction on video he might have realized maggie didn't really ask for those things and never let him be alone with her.
DeleteHi KT, I get it now, I thought he meant she wasn't serious in the moment at the Poirot.
DeleteI feel like a central piece to why I feel the way I do right now about this story is A) a lot of the mysteries have been solved and one of the most fascinating elements of a KT novel is it's mystery, and B) It's over!
DeleteTBTH...glad you got some time to comment. I was with you on Max and Keely when I first read it through, I was real worried. But I’m not now, and here’s why: I think Max at the end has finally fully committed to her. They may still play with Maggie and Cole, but it will be because it excites Max to see her with Cole, not because he’s still pining for Maggie.
DeleteAnd I agree, I want Keely for myself too...lol.
JL I haven't been able to read all your comments yet, I'm honestly overwhelmed, I want to just put a rubber stamp cosign again on everything you've written that I've read. Thanks for being such a good reader.
DeleteI'm also content with that fact that Cole is Maggie's true partner and not Max. Cole is just more suitable for her. Max/Maggie could work, but why deal with the baggage when someone wonderful like Keely exists?
DeleteGlad to see your comments again 2b2h.
DeleteFelt that way about Keely and max too. But I think in the grand scheme he realizes Keely is a keeper
That she will be "loyal" to him..
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI did not like that Cole never tried to contact Max over the course of the time he left for home, is it because he was so mad about him leaving Maggie behind with Jay possibly loaming? Or because Max said such hurtful stuff to him? I'm sure wanting a chance to be with Maggie without resistance was welcomed too.
ReplyDeleteI like that Cole had an elaborate plan to make his wedding night sex with Maggie so hot, but to note listen to his best man's speech? Then to check the closet for the ghost of a best man in a time where (now with new information) he partially manipulated Max to sitting quietly in because Maggie 'wanted it.'
Very fitting scene for the story, really when thinking about it.
Sorry caught myself on a tangent, I don't think the speech skipping and recency suite and what transpired within are connected, but taken together, it is pretty blue.
DeleteMax's speech was not the best man's speech. Maggie calls it impromptu and the timing of Max getting on the stool is specified as being after the speeches. There's not many people around to hear Max, and when she follows Ken back into the Poirot the cleanup has already begun. This is at the tail end of the reception. Cole did not skip his Best Man's speech.
DeleteOh dammit, I'm sorry. I really should have put that together shouldn't I have? It wasn't a big thought, but now the weight of Cole not being there isn't as heavy.
DeleteBefore I get too far off the deep end with trying to sound like a good critic of your work, I want to applaud your writing on that speech, another example of putting us right in the moment and just genuinely enjoyed the monologue immensely. Everyone else was great too.
DeleteI actually cried when Max was watching Maggie and Cole dancing the bride and groom dance.
Yes, that was a tough moment for me too...as well as some of the things Maggie says to Max while they’re in Tahiti. But I’ve come to believe there was a method to Maggie doing what she did...she wanted to give him that final push to Keely.
DeleteThat speech was so fucking hard to come up with. I wracked myself trying to get into Max's head there and took a few stabs at it that I didn't like.
DeleteCry-moments: the dance (keep that song away from me right now), Maggie's true elation when max surprises her in Tahiti (that got me for some reason--but happy reasons), the final paragraph got me (that might be me wrapping up a year of my life spent on these characters) ... I might add to this later ...
DeleteThe one part of Max coming to see Maggie in Tahiti...wouldn’t she have immediately recognized his voice? At first she’s scared until she sees his face. Unless he was disguising it somehow. Sorry if I now ruined that scene lol.
DeleteThe last paragraph is a smile for me...two young couples enjoying their lives and envisioning their bright futures. If Max and Keely have a girl, do we think they name her June? Or does Maggie beat them to the punch? Probably not, she’d leave that honor to Max.
On his speech, I like that he has the guts to take a stab at Carol...no one else in that room would have done it.
DeletePainful moment for me in retrospect is Maggie and Cole consummating their marriage. Up until that moment, Max has always come up in Maggie's thoughts, and to be honest with you guys, it was kind of a turn off when it happened, but was always fitting to who Maggie was and how important Max was to her, so fuck my stupid kinks. That said, no mentions of Max at all in her mind during that scene, and it kind of stings. She is with the man she wants, no need for comparison, Cole is the one. Not Max.
DeleteIn a lot of ways I can see the value of then following up that situation with Max taking Keely up to the Bridal Suite, a sort balancing act that takes the pain of the previous scene down a notch
TBH I didn’t focus much on the Maggie Cole scene, I was more about Max and Keely in the Bridal Suite. That was such a beautiful moment, and it was when I was screaming in my head to Max to get his s@#$ together and commit to Keely. Even though he’s hurting she knows just what to do to soothe him.
DeleteYea i enjoyed the bridal suite scene much more than the regency room. But KT had to slip one in on me by making Max watch cole and Maggie go skinny dipping..dang it. I just think that was a moment that max was getting into his head that ok its over and im still alive. I got a hot babe in my bed whose gonna be loyal to me.
DeleteI think he's fighting with a small part of himself all throughout the 2 Epilogues...95% of him is totally in love with Keely, he wants her, needs her, and knows she's his future. Then something happens that reminds the 5% of him still pining for Maggie that he lost what that part feels is the love of his life.
DeleteBut each time that happens its Keely that prevents him from falling into despair. After the song plays...in the bridal suite...after he sees them running naked on the beach. Then finally, with a little assist from Maggie I think, that final 5% lets go on the balcony and surrenders. Keely wins..and Max does too.
Great way to look at it @JL23
DeleteYea i like that...also self correction max didnt think keely was loyal....but fucking faithful. Meaning Maggie was not. To me that means he still harbored a bitter "she cheated on me" attitlude. so even though hes moved on its with a taint.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteYeah, I picked up on the “fucking faithful” too. Is it a dig at Maggie? Probably a little...I have to think even a saint like Max harbors a tiny bit of anger at Maggie over what happened. He wouldn’t be human if he didn’t.
DeleteBut I think the line is more about Keely and how she feels about him than anything else. He knows she loves him, and that she isn’t searching for anyone else. She’s found her one, and he understands that.
Definitely both of those things.
DeleteAgree it's both.
DeleteI want to point out that the song played during the dance at the wedding, "You're the best thing," was a great choice. And it hit me twice because at that point in the story it was ambiguous whether the husband was Cole or Max. I assumed it was Cole, and in that brief moment when I thought the lyrics were referring to Cole, I felt deeply for him. So, so deeply. And then it was revealed as Cole and the rug was pulled out from under me and I disliked him even more. Then I had to re-evaluate those lyrics and tie them to Max's connection with Maggie. Heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteI think those lyrics work fit more neatly with Cole's situation had Max ended up marrying Maggie but it works with both. And it's so heartbreaking that Max had to listen to that song so many times, knowing its implications. But he did anyway and chose to be Cole's best man. If you don't think Max is a saint, you're wrong.
typo, meant to say *I assumed it was Max
DeleteI didn’t go into it in the book for fear of overstating, but that song is for max and Maggie, not Cole and Maggie. I added it to the post above, listen and presume the lyrics are for max and you’ll see why I was bawling. Tearing up right now, ha ha ...
DeleteOoof...that’s rough. No wonder Max got emotional, and no wonder Keely was so understanding. Makes a lot more sense to me now.
DeleteWhy did she do that!?
DeleteThe lyrics are striking about their relationship, it makes sense. It's works for both of her men and it's devastating to hear. Can't imagine the pain.
DeleteIt really is a beautiful song...So sincere and asks for nothing..I hope so bad that Max doesn't feel that forever for Maggie. That feeling would destroy a person. Tearing up just looking at those words..fucking music..
DeleteI know it was meant for Max and Maggie, I made a typo.
ReplyDeleteSomewhere someone asked about Maggie not recognizing Max’s voice in bora bora but I can’t find it now, so: she was lost in thought and thousands of miles from where she would expect to hear Max’s voice. It might be different if it was Boston or nyc, but she’s in the middle of the ocean. The kerfuffle only lasts a second anyway before her brain catches up.
ReplyDeleteParting shot for the night - does anyone else immediately question the sincerity of a point whenever a KT character adds emphasis to a point their making?
ReplyDeleteNot "I love you" but "I really do love you" like Maggie says a couple times. it made me question Keely's statement when Max said she was his rock and Keely replied, "Its my honor, I mean it."
Ahh! Kiss of death, lol. Just say what you mean, don't draw attention to what you're saying as if you need proof!
I go by that in real life lol...it’s like who are trying to convince, me or you? With Maggie, she’s still in denial there that she’s in love with Cole. With Keely, I think at that point there is more unease under the surface over Max’s feelings for Maggie than she lets on. While she’s outwardly so supportive of Max as he works things through. I’m sure internally she was saying “C’mon man, can’t you see I’m your ‘one and only’ not Maggie.”
DeleteIn retrospect, yes, I would question it every time. There's such a long time gap and we missed so many interactions, though.
DeleteMax never called Maggie 'his rock' and I'm so happy that Max found his. Even being able to say that..'you're my rock'.. is so romantic. I question when Maggie expresses her feelings, but not Max. That's real. It's so sappy but I love it.
Really goes to show that KT cares about her characters. It's hard for me to view these guys as fiction, I know of course that they are, but they seem so real....And I just want them to be happy....
Damn that song!
Carol saw the tapes. She is fully capable of separating her goals for Margaret as Family with a capital F, from whatever motherly instincts she may still possess. Besides, it's not anything she hasn't seen before from her previous life -;)
ReplyDeletekt, a modest ask - since green eyes are a recessive trait and since I have them as well, can I have first dibs on Keely to keep this particular form of diversity going? please?
You'd take her from Max!?
DeleteWe could probably work something out. I'm an aging bull.
DeleteSad that this story has had its conclusion. Said before didnt care who ended up with who as long as everyone was happy. Especially Maggie, then things went sideways on me. Found myself feeling bad for max and i mean in both poor max getting dumped bad and dam you idiot max bad. Cole was a player and we all kind of knew it but even players have feelings and he fell hard for maggie.
ReplyDeleteIm also not forgetting that Cole at first was a reluctant participant. But when the door was opened he had no problem marking maggie as a conquest.
It remained with maggie to choose and max made all the wrong turns and cole all the right ones. Maybe some of maxs wrong turns were due to Cole and maggie to a degree putting up road blocks, to keep him veering off.
But none of it matters as alls well that ends well.
True love prevailed for Maggie and Cole. Not so much for Max i think in the back of his mind he'll always conider maggie as the one that got away and keely the one that didnt.
Have faith in Keely and Max John! I truly do believe he’s committed to her and has let go of Maggie at the end. He was pining for a Maggie that he comes to realize didn’t exist anymore, and maybe never really did. He knows his true love is Keely on that balcony.
DeleteMaybe i think my doubts come from that we see keely and max at the wedding then right before the credits roll. Not enough exposure to the sincerity. Which we discuss here . I dont doubt that over time maxs pain and hurt dissipate but at the wedding those wounds still seem abit tender. Hence the "fucking faithful" . He will always remember Maggie you never forget your first love. Just thinking how much max is steered to his current relationship rather than natural selection. To me maggie and cole seem to drive max where they want him to be which in the end is happiness ..how can you argue with that. Max maybe a brilliant businessman but in romance ....dammm!. If not for the happenstance of Keely. ...... maybe cole and Maggie realize that Max had the potential to become a leach to their love. Back to the bandaid...
DeleteIndulge a what if here ..but what if keely didnt work out or doesnt.
I get this is a little off the rails but just letting my mind wander this fine a.m.
John didn't see this til now, but here's my thoughts:
Delete1) I think everything Maggie and Cole do post lodge is a complicated mix. Yes, they probably at some point just want to be together, and on a certain level, "cut Max loose." So that is selfish. But I think they also care for him and want him to be good with it. So they set him up with Keely, not to get rid of him, but because they think she's a good fit. And she is...everything Max builds with Keely he does on his own, so for me its as real as if he met her randomly on the street.
2) If Keely hadn't worked out, if her and Max didn't hit it off...I don't think Cole and Maggie would have just said: "Oh well, we tried Max...but its time you left us alone." But I don't know what Max does, knowing that those two want to be a couple (honestly he probably knew that for a long time). Maybe he just decides to give them even more space and begin to date on his own...ripping off the band aid himself. Those 6 years are really playing in my head...just a fascinating dynamic at play with all of them.
If Keely and Max doesn't work in the future...well I just don't want to think about that. But if you force me, I think Max is more mature and would be able to handle it. I don't think there's any worry there though.
Quiz time:
ReplyDelete1) name the hottest sex scene.
2) the most tragic moment.
3) the most awkward moment.
4) the most funniest moment.
5) when you knew who was the choosen one.
You too KT. :)
For me:
1) poirot regency room part 1
2)same as above it shock and rocked me to my core.
3) at alteris when maggie decided to go to harvard and max was gonna pull levers. Did she have a piece of bubble gum to get the cum stink off her breath before they met max. I dont believe they ever revealed to max what they done.
4) max showing Maggies pictures to the drunk chick in the can at conners dorm.
5) the lodge although there were hints scatter about, but those would mostly be in hind sight. The lodge at the "Return of the Ring" very LOR the "fellowship of the ring"max maggie cole carol martin ken and debatably jay.. the "two towers" cole and max (one is a little shorter than the other) and the "Return of the Ring" kind of felt good when bilbo took the ring from Gollum(ok maggie was Gollum for me at that moment).
Abidetbeditbedit thats all folks!
1) name the hottest sex scene.
DeleteHard not to pick anything above the Poirot, so I agree. I do find Maggie and Cole's first moments together on her home bed to be hot too.
2) the most tragic moment.
Hmm, in terms of fundamental moments for me, I feel like when Max left for his student teaching gig in Secret Maggie and Maggie so bashfully says, "I guess I'll just hang out with Cole." It was sort of the first moment of hopelessness in Max's control over Maggie's heart. Ah, maybe it's Cole carrying her back to the Becker house from the beach in Sharing ... or shit ... standing at the alter together as husband and wife knowing they were going to fuck later that night, in Sharing ... gah!
3) the most awkward moment.
Carol talking to her daughter, pretty much every line. Fucking bitch, "are your cheeks fat?" "You eat too much junk" "Still got blue streaks huh?" I'd like to cunt punt that bitch.
4) the most funniest moment.
Mmm - so many, I like Max running into the Music Room with the raven's head on stark naked in Sharing Maggie. That was well done considering how scared he was at the time.
5) when you knew who was the choosen one.
Might have been in Discovering Maggie, where she actually has a full on date for the first time with the man she would eventually marry. Maggie's eyes on Cole felt very powerful throughout.
That was fun, John!
I'll add a funny/absurd moment mostly because I want to get KT to explain herself ...
Delete... max and Cole, same hole ... really? That's what we're doing now? lol hugs and kisses!
You know my fondness for charcters with kinks or ideas they're embarrassed about! I liked that Maggie had thought about that and was embarrassed that she wanted it. When she presented it to Cole she wasn't even sure if that was a thing. I love her immaturity that still clung to her even as she shed her more youthful things and became a Carol-type.
DeleteThat scene was not about the act, but about a secret kink Maggie had. She came up with that on her own. I also think despite its obvious kinkiness I think it stands as a strong symbol of her confusion over the relationship with her two boys.
John C's Quiz:
Delete1. Drawing the J in Maggie's butt when they were practicing sex but not actually having sex :eyeroll: There was something ... I don't know, that scene to me was perfect. Submission and dubious consent all at the same time.
2. hmmm... you know I have to think more on this. I'll post the rest later ...
The quiz (I love these cause it forces me to go back and relive some great moments):
Delete1) For me it’s the dorm room scene, where Jessie finds them. To me, that’s the perfect example of Cole and Maggie’s relationship. A combination of caring and tenderness and real dirty kinks. I discounted the possibility they were in love until that point. After that, I had to concede they might be.
2) The most tragic moment for me might in retrospect be Max going to Ken to try and get him to convince Maggie to dump Cole. Just a guy who is desperately flailing at any idea to stop the water from this flood he’s inflicted on his life.
But in the moment, the two most tragic points for me reading was the scene in the Twilight and when Maggie admits to Max in the lodge she loves Cole, and that when she’s afraid Jay might attack her the first thought that popped into her head was she might never see Cole again. Just absolute heart falling into my feet moments for poor Max.
3) Most awkward moment for me is definitely anything to do with Carol and whether she saw the security footage. The realization by Maggie that her mother may have saw the things she did with Cole and Max is just so damn uncomfortable.
4) Funniest moment for me...gee I don’t know that one. My memory tends to skew toward the more recently published chapters on things like this, so I’ll say Cole picking up Max with his new watch and taking him into the ocean. For me it’s funny and sweet, and I smiled and laughed seeing their friendship fully rebuilt despite the horrible things that happened to ruin it. But it also resembles their relationship to a tee as Maggie explains to Keely. Max enjoys surrendering himself to Cole, and not just with his women.
5) I didn’t know she was picking Cole until her conversation with Ken when she admits to herself she always had a thing for Cole, and probably manipulated the situation so she could be with him and see if it was possible. But reading some of your recollections of little moments with Maggie and Cole, scenes I discounted at the time, the evidence was always there from the moment they hooked up. I just didn’t want to see it.
Real quick note to KT - you're right, I'm sure when you read what I said you thought, "Really, that sex act is the first one I did that made you think 'boy that seemed unrealistic'?" I realize as I think about it, you do pepper your scenes with extreme situations because of the importance of what it means to everyone involved, and yeah I didn't lose the symbolism of Max and Cole as one. Nor the importance of Max finishing first, or how far Max could even reach, etc. I won't talk about it anymore, sorry!
DeleteOther extremes, virginal orgy in TWHW1, Rocco using Nia's face on multiple occasions in LHW2, and unlubricated back entries in LHW. My timing on bringing up crazy situations is a bit late isn't it?
1) Hottest scene for me was probably at the food tasting event, outside the bathroom when Cole was teasing Maggie. Not really a sex scene, but it was so perverted.
Delete2) Most tragic scene was when Maggie said she wanted to be "open". That's when the pretense that she was just getting life experiences goes out the window.
3) Most awkward would probably be when they find Ken walking along the road the morning after he witnesses their threesome. Wouldn't want to be Ken in that situation.
4) Funniest: Max's speech at the wedding. He let LOOSE.
5) I didn't know for certain until the reveal at the wedding, but I suspected it was a losing battle when Maggie said she wanted to be open. 'Open' being a soft way of saying she wanted to be with Cole exclusively.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are good! Everyone brought something different to the table. No wrong answers and alot of dead on ones.
DeleteCould have made the questions for each charactor but my poor keyboard and eyes woukd suffer for it.
Sorry for mental vomit so early in the morning, but KT can we talk about the line in Sharing Maggie, "I've wanted this for so long" not from Cole necessarily, but from Maggie? As the story unfolds she only ever admits to eventually wanting to hook up with him as she started her sexual adventure, but that line felt like an accidentally honest moment where she acknowledged harbored feelings for him for a while prior to everything.
ReplyDeleteMichael Myers impression again "Discuss."
One other related piece. KT, please answer this too, I asked you this after LHW2, I think the answer is different in this one. If Max did not sort of prod Maggie in the direction of being shared, would she had eventually left Max for Cole?
DeleteI am torn, in some sense I think no because they did so good for years of friendship never acknowledging any attraction between them despite lots of play physical teasing like the "keep away" moment in Tempting ... side bar question I might as well ask too... in hindsight was Maggie flirting, in THAT way, in that scene with Cole and not even realizing it? Or was Cole in the friend zone still?
2nd question first: maggie admits it to herself in RM, that she and Max were doomed the moment she hosted Jay in her dorm room with terrible intent. Max was holding on to something that was falling apart and he did his best ...
Deletewanted this for so long: Yeah, I would say that she had feelings of a lack of sexual fulfillment despite the great love she had with max, and that there was a deep longing for her to be with a guy like Cole. Since he was such a good friend too, she probably wanted it emotionally as well.
Flirting: yes, flirting without flirting. At this point she didn't think she was good enough for a guy like Cole. Just playing with him would get her charged up for sure. Had he stuck his hand up her shirt or something however she would slap his hand away and be mad. Shit's complicated, huh?
Also, though I've posted pictures of Lauren Tsai I don't think Maggie is quite that beautiful. She would skew more to the adorable side. There's something about Lauren Tsai's movements that are like Maggie's; her cuteness. But LT is a high-end model. Maggie didn't think she was pretty enough to get a guy like Cole. And as disappointing as this may be, Cole's opinion of her might have changed a little when he visited her home and saw her family's level of wealth. Now she was his good friend, super-adorable, and mate material. Though he still wouldn't have made a move and had to be coaxed. The idea of being with her was actually difficult for him to accept at first.
While Cole is hot and will always be successful, he didn't have the drive that Max had. Max didn't care much about what the Becker's had, never mentioned it. In fact shared uncomfortable jokes about the Beckers. he wasn't after their stuff. Cole liked the trappings and while he does whole-heartedly love maggie, that relationship may never have blossomed had she come from a middle-class family. That was why Max's statement in the Twilight hurt both Maggie and Cole—it was close to the truth they both feared. Cole would hate to think that was why he was with her and she would be afraid that it was why he was with her. Back to her thoughts of not being good enough.
Adding: By the time she is twenty-six she is no longer a kid, and has become beautiful.
DeleteSometimes the comments that hurt the most are the ones that have an element of truth behind them. That’s why Cole was so pissed at Max for saying that. I don’t think he’s with Maggie for the Becker’s money, but I agree it certainly played a role in his attraction to her.
DeleteIt’s just been so great going back and reliving some of these moments in the earlier chapters now that the full truth has come out. I’m slapping my head now saying “How didn’t I see it?” But in a way, it makes me even more sure of my thoughts at the ending that everyone is with the person they’re meant to be with.
DeleteI think if all this stuff doesn’t happen, Max and Maggie get married and become Pete and Jess. At some point Maggie was going to stray from Max in search of something. Better to find that out at 21, then at 35 with 2 little kids.
Since I brought up the scene of Jessie finding Cole and Maggie, it has me wondering what happened to her and Maggie’s relationship. We get no indication she’s at the bridal party or even the wedding. I know I wasn’t the only one who when that prologue was published just assumed she was the Maid of Honor.
DeleteDid that scene in the dorm permanently alter their relationship, or is it just an example of people drifting apart after school?
What was the hint that Cole was a bit of a gold digger? I didn't realize Max's criticism was so biting when he said it. Was it how Cole talked about meeting Maggie's friends and Family during "Practice" in Secret Maggie? I totally took that as Cole just feeling closer to her because he knew more about her past and where she came from. It kind of takes the pleasantness out that interaction (where his thingy was notwithstanding lol) now that you say what you did about Cole.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI don’t think there’s a specific hint. For me, it’s kind of what KT said...it’s in the way Cole talks about the Beckers. And contrasted to how Max talks about the Beckers, which is basically, never. Again, I don’t think that’s the reason he’s with Maggie, but it plays a part in his attraction to her. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, power and money are attractive, but I think it’s a truth he doesn’t really want to admit.
DeleteHence why that comment got to him. His only retort to it was to punch Max...that told me he didn’t really have a good response. Cause he knew at some small level it rang true and he was ashamed of it.
Yeah, I'll buy that he talked about, oh wow look at all this cool shit, but I never took that to mean anything other than someone being impressed by the fancy new toys, and hella expensive bourbons, not a factor determining his attraction to Maggie. So that's news to me, and it lowers him a rung in the "Best of Bulls" category that now exists in my KT ethos. Close to losing out to Dino, but still better because physical assault is kind of a red line for me.
DeleteI guess for me it doesn’t really lower my opinion of him. Cause I don’t think it’s a huge part of his attraction to Maggie, or anywhere close to a determining part. If Maggie was a normal girl I think he still wants to be with her. But we’re attracted to people for all different reasons. If a small part of Cole was excited by the Beckers’ life and it partially led him to look at Maggie in a new light, that’s perfectly fine. As long as that remains a small part of the attraction.
DeleteCan we play a game real quick? It's called if the wives/fiancees/girlfriends knew we were watching?
ReplyDeleteIt's simple, here are some of the women in our great stories who we have intimate knowledge of their sex lives, if they found out about us how would they react? I'll set it up and put my answers below, like John did, so you can copy/paste and go!
Maggie -
Jess -
Nia -
Charlie -
Natalie -
Kate -
Amy -
any others you want to mention?
Maggie - I think the exploratory version of her would get off on it, she was quite vocal about being seen publicly while she was with Cole, to have the world see her in a different light than just meek innocent Maggie.
Jess - I think she would not like it, it might have illuminated how wrong things were between Tyler, Pete, and her because she would undoubtedly become self-conscious. She strikes me as a 'leave it in the bedroom' sexual person.
Nia - This one is tough, I think it would depend for her, and it would range from "No" as she shakes her rump while you leave the room, to "No and I'm going to murder you" to "Yes, but I don't want to hear you."
Charlie - Again this would depend, I think she would only do it if she thought the people around her were attractive men, she doesn't want an audience she wouldn't personally get off on, and honestly I'm probably wrong about this, she'd probably be too shy if anyone saw her.
Natalie - Hell no, porn objectifies women, and she is not a slut for us to stroke to.
Kate - Also probably no, she would really need to be turned on for any other eyes to be on her, that'd be about the only time she'd be okay with it.
Amy - How dare I even ask this? She already left the room and is asking for JJ to take her home. Probably back to South Carolina, Momma was right about moving out west.
I think as a group they would call us all a bunch of perverts. Individually might be different some would be ehh so what, others might check us out for her next meal and others may try and maintain their dignity by harumphing us.
DeleteHaha, as I ran down the list, I actually realized you're probably right. I guess it was really on the strength of Maggie alone that I even thought this was funny exercise. Then I just became a reason why that character would hate us lol.
Deletethen it just became an exercise ...*
DeleteKT, I am reminded of one of the major questions I had throughout this adventure, and if you want to answer it later, please do but can we talk about the Cole/Martin parallels. You said Cole picked up on the "daddy" perversions, but can we talk about why they are similar people and why you wanted that for Cole?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSorry know this wasnt for me but my two cents worth.
DeleteMaybe martins a bull and used carol sexuality to get ahead of his competitors until he no longer needed that. Than he built a playroom which eventually led to maggie. Which is why carol may not have been dissappointed with the video tape like mother like daughter. Her mags has an alpha who could potentially weaponize maggie to get ahead like hubby. We dont see behind that veil though purly speculative on my part.
I still think Martin is a bottom...high powered Wall St. type, used to always getting his own way, getting his kicks by being dominated and humiliated. Hey, maybe he’s even a cuck. Maybe Carol and Cole....nope, nope, not going there.
DeleteK, this isn't the direction I was hoping it would go as a question lol. KT, could you let me know if you're purposely not going there for this question?
DeleteHey KT, can we get poll results Monday? Lol
ReplyDeleteSo who was hoping for a reconciliation and who wanted cole to win fair maidens hand prior to recovering maggie. Keep in mind this isnt based on history or facts what did you gut tell you or what you hoped would happen.
ReplyDeleteFor myself i already said so many times i couldnt decide but ill confess i was holding out a bit of hope for Max.
I think ice made my bias known but can hardly expect anyone else to remember it. I was on 'Team Cole' because I thought he was a pretty decent guy and Maggie and Cole really meshed well (pun absolutely intended).
DeleteI was thinking Max all the way until this chapter, but having read this last chapter and all the comments I’m happy with how everything turned out for our 3 characters.
DeleteOne thing I’ve realized reading all the comments on Cole and Maggie is I didn’t really read those early chapters very well. I feel like I missed a lot of signs that Cole was the one. Or I just discounted them as KT building up tension and uncertainty before bringing Max and Maggie back together.
@jl23 Yea i get that there were alot of clues sprinkled around.but thats a kinda hindsight thing. I caught some of the signs and i think the first one that was an oh shit moment was at alteries that was a devastating moment for me suddenly max was going to have to fight for maggie prior to, she was a sure thing.
Delete@2b2h thats was my crux ...my gut was telling me Cole was the guy but my heart wanted Max to come out on top. My heart is bigger than my gut figuiratively. Literally its opposite...lol ... i blame it on the beer.
I was hoping for no reconciliation, maybe just a friendly conversation to make things square then move their separate ways. I think Max and Maggie make better friends than life partners. That would make for a very short book, though.
DeleteYeah I definitely saw signs but to me they weren’t that different than what we saw from Nia with Rocco, so I figured it would go a similar way.
DeleteSince this didn’t come close to happening, guess it’s safe to say what my thoughts were on how it might go. I figured there would be a confrontation similar to what we see with Max, Maggie and Cole, except Max actually leaves them and moves on with his life. He gets a job in finance while Maggie and Cole begin their lives together at Harvard. But as Maggie and Cole actually build a relationship, they begin to find the spark fade, primarily because Maggie can’t get over the fact she broke Max’s heart. Eventually they break up, Maggie wants to contact Max but he won’t speak to her.
It takes a tragedy to bring them back together...my guess was perhaps her brother Ken’s death. She desperately needs Max, but is afraid to get in contact with him for fear he’ll reject her. So it’s Cole that goes to NY to tell him, and also to let him know that he and Maggie broke up. After a long night of talking Max and Cole bury the hatchet and Max flies back with him to Boston for the funeral. When she sees him, Maggie falls into his arms sobbing, begging for forgiveness. Slowly over time, they rebuild their friendship, then eventually begin dating again. It ends with their marriage with Cole as their best man.
WOW was I wrong! Basically almost the opposite. I feel like I got some themes right, but then KT chose a completely different way to write it. Believe me, her route is 1,000x better.
No, I really like that JL! except for the part where Ken dies, I loved that character, he is still my favorite ancillary character in the KTverse.
DeleteAs it is, anyone get sad about June's death? She was so nice! Now who's gonna help Keith remember the little details???
I like that too but instead of ken id use maxs moms death as thr uniting force.
DeleteBut those are my/our druthers.
I wouldnt want the outcome we have any different than the way KT made it. I am so grateful for these post mordums. Helps a) to recognize what i missed
b) to not expect a standard outcome.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI figured it needed to be someone that would devastate Maggie, and require Max to come back and show her he still cared for her. So Max’s mom wouldn’t have worked I think. The only person I could think of was Ken. Could have been Cole too, but I would need him around cause I would’ve reconciled the three as well. Just in a completely different way.
ReplyDeleteJune’s death was really sad in this universe too. I’m glad that Cole, Maggie and Keely were around to help Max heal.
A lot of this series felt like a horror movie for me. I'm curious what your experiences were like.
ReplyDeleteTempting Maggie was light and fun -- seeing Maggie with Jay the first time was troubling but easily forgivable and Max's strategy to let her explore and 'get it out of her system' sounded interesting and fun, if not a little dangerous. It stayed that way until the scene where Cole and Maggie are having a tickle fight in the common room. Mindless fun in 99.99% of situations, but in a novel like this I knew where it was going. His best man, his best friend, surely not, right? Shivers. After this point, Max isn't even in the backseat anymore. Can't even lean over the console and say, "Honey, make a left turn here." Out of fear. Maggie is in control and she goes after Cole all on her own. He's losing her right in front of his eyes and the ambiguity over whether it's real or not is chilled my bones. The beach scene where she's clinging to Cole, the bedroom scene that follows, the food tasting scenes, the pizza scene where she calls him 'baby.' Felt like a golf club was in my esophagus. Reading about Cole...telling Max it's just for fun and for her benefit...knowing full well what he's saying is bullshit. Gullible, desperate Max, walking into every booby trap, stepping on every land-mine. Tripping over himself when he talks to Maggie, unable to express himself.
When it transitions to Maggie's perspective, I'm not interested in the budding romance between her and Cole, I can't be. I'm waiting for the boogeyman to appear and scare the shit out of me. The "practice" sex, the casual dates, blowjobs in the park. I can't count the number of times he snatched me, either, the boogeyman. So many heartfelt moments, too, shedding much needed light from time to time. "Maybe Max isn't crazy for staying the course," I'd think. But it was never enough; Maggie always steered back towards the last place Max wanted to go: to Cole. Maggie's perspective was like reading straight from the demon's eyes, her having too much fun to break things off with Cole and too self-serving to break the collar she had locked around Max's neck. And then she said she wanted to be 'open' and my heart detonated. Said she wanted to go to law school for 4 years, away with Cole. I thought, "This is it Max, turn around and never look back." Maggie demonstrated to me that she wasn't concerned for Max's feelings, or was unaware of them. Not sure which of those is scarier. But he didn't leave, and at this point while I was cheering for Max, I wasn't betting on him.
The rest is history: things escalate and get worse and worse for Max. Maggie hardly even expresses long term interest in him until she asks him to go to Harvard with them. I know, I know, she says "I love you," a dozen times but what does that matter when she loves Cole equally as much, and all I want to know is who she picks.
Then the time jump and the reveal. The teasing and the suddenness of it makes it difficult to accept. I'm googling lyrics and shedding tears, mourning Max's loss. I'm shocked that Max is even there. But he's taking it a bit better than I am, he did have more warning after all. And then gradually, the pit in my stomach dissipates as I realize Priestess Keely has exorcised his demon and he can finally live a torment-free life.
I know I'm probably the only one that viewed it that way, but where would you say your experiences ventured from mine if they did?
DeleteIm sorry i had a full page response and lost it all in a accidental left swipe.
DeleteSo short version.
My view is not that far away but far enough
I see what maggie saw in cole stated it back in one of the other blogs. He was an experienced player or he was the more mature of the three. Max was the playmate Cole was the "daddy figuire".
My breaking point was the poirot part 1. It was awesomely hot and also soo wrong. I was like "oooh snap wait til max finds out ..shit will hit the fan!" Than i was crushed that my hero was perving in the closet. Than to boot he sends cole after Maggie to "straighten things out"
I gotta hand it to KT that was one of the best gotcha scenes yet. Absoulutely devastated me. After that i couldnt count myself as team Max anymore. He was sabotaging his own relationship.
Than the alreries meeting..
He accuses cole of convincing maggie to go to harvard maggie defends the decision as her own choice (cole so did sway her choice). So max has to put on a grin and shake hands and all is well in paradise. Knowing full well he was going to plot against them as they were him.
So summing up abit max as much as cole caused his own problem he didnt react quick enough or strongly enough to stem the tide. Cole manipulated the situation to his advantage. As well as maggie and maggies advantage was cole.
I like this story mostly because the bull won. Its not the typical reconcile story. It was a twist and i love twists. Like nia doing it at the wedding with rocco. Who would have thunk it? It was a wedding the husband was there her friends were there and shes boinking big dick on the table in the other room..it was a nice twist.
So much more to say i dont think this properly identifies my feeling on this story as my feelings were all over the place.
Is Cole a bull, though? I realize he was the third partner and was the dominant one, but I never viewed him as a 'bull'. Idk why, maybe because he was so close to them and because generally bull isn't so smart and uses his tie with the husband/fiance to ultimately steal the girl for his own. I think he warrants a different word. He's more like an invader or assassin.
DeleteI also want to point out that I didn't only view this story as a horror movie. With the time in between each chapter especially, I was able to think about it and read comments on here and widen my perspective. Get a feel for what Cole might be going through, why Maggie was doing what she was doing. And I understood them, but every decision Maggie made seemed to frighten me anyway.
DeleteThis is my abstract take (Reaction to WA)-
ReplyDeleteI feel like one of the central tenants to a KT novel/series, is that the world is full of grey area. We all have an idea in our mind about what we want in life, what others want in it, how we want to achieve our goals, and how to measure succeeding them. When it comes to love, we have this idea for much of our lives that there is one other person out there for me, and once you have someone in your life say, “I love you” you might think you have a really solid idea of what that means based on your preconceptions.
You (general ‘you’ not ‘you, you’ lol) know and I know, life is never that simple.
There's a journey when you’re with someone you say “I love you” to, and it’s winding and full of obstacles, particularly, the things that they want out of life might not be what you had in mind. You adjust your standards, or at least you can choose to, by saying, ok it turns out that by allowing her to do what he/she is doing she might be happier. And by extension, so will I be. I might only agree to it a little bit because some part of me understands and even relates to the good aspects of this shared experience, but not necessarily to the fullest extent that would make me feel fully happy. Still, she says she's happy, and I DID enjoy it a bit, so maybe this is just something we need to journey through. Like meeting the in-laws, it gradually gets better and eventually, becomes no big deal.
The above paragraph was vague! You can apply a lot to it, but obviously the main driver of the conflict, namely sex, is what I was applying. Did I just compare watching your future wife to meeting the in-laws? Maybe it’s a bad example … lol.
The reality is we’re not sure if we’re doing anything perfectly right. And when the reality dawns on us that we might be wrong, that the direction we’re going isn’t the best one, or that we aren’t sure, can be unsettling, and also intriguing. It’s that feeling that I feel like KT explores. At no time do either of us really know if Maggie will stay with Max, to JL’s point above, but then again, both of them are doing this thing together because they believe it to be in the best interest of their love. As the experience becomes less an abstract concept and Maggie starts to accumulate experiences, both of them grapple with what it is they feel from it and try to gauge whether it’s what they intended.
I feel like the KT reader needs to have a certain emotional depth to them to fully embrace her stories. A sort of emotional “You must be this tall to ride” otherwise there will be a point in the story at which you just shut down and reject the whole thing. Sort of a *points fingers at different people* “Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you’re cool, fuck you” (that’s a Half-Baked reference if you’re into B-comedies). And I feel like she understands that we don’t and can’t know everything about how we, or others, feel. At least not right away.
Conclusion (words are how I sleep anymore, lol)
DeleteIn a lot of ways this story is a success story, but not about finding love necessarily (depending on who you ask at least), which may be the preconception we usually have when we pick up books that have beginnings and ends. Sort of a “Hey, this book ended, isn’t happily ever after supposed to be on this page?” It’s a success story in that navigating the grey area of loving or trying to love other people led through some extremely troubled waters and yet everyone survived it, and can continue on living, learning, loving. That was sappy. The problems that exist in the world still exist, won’t ever go away, and we may never know what we are doing things right, and that might feel a bit unsettling as we turn off our kindles. I don’t think KT will ever relieve that feeling. But I think that’s because she genuinely believes she can’t help you there, and probably no one else can, not even yourself necessarily. But you can try, and succeed and fail along the way, and hope that the warm feeling that she leaves in the wake of the storm that was created in this series, will continue.
We have reason to think so, and we have reason not to, and the mystery continues …
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete@wa as for the horror show:
DeleteMy magic power is stoicism. I tend to look at things in logical sequence. When the markers indicate a direction i follow it. this story had a lot of things that lead me this way or that. I liked cole i hated cole, i liked max i hated max. I liked maggi then i hated her then i felt bad for both max and maggie. Wasn't sure why. But thats where the bread crumbs lead me. Ultimately i was glad they both had solid relationships in the end.
Yes i was horrorfied a couple of times; the poirot, cole convinceing maggie to cheat. Alteries, the tickle fest. The ring pull felt good but also bad part of me was thinking hes gonna.toss it in mt doom. And he lost maggie but another paet thought he could get her back. I tend to cheer the underdog and Max became that.
TBTH I thinked you kind of summed it up pretty good there...how I feel after reading a KT story. Usually happy, but more than a little unsettled. They usually stay with me for a long time afterward, as you can probably tell. Nia and Geoff stayed right in the back of my mind for almost a week or two after...they would constantly pop up in my head at random moments as I thought about what I had read and dreamed of the future for them. It’s been the same for Max and Maggie (and Cole and Keely too) so far. So glad I have this forum to get my thoughts out. Even if only for me, it’s comforting to see my thoughts in writing.
DeleteOn my emotions throughout the story, I would describe them as a roller coaster. I don’t think I’ve ever had such a change in feelings for our main characters in one story. Typically my feelings for them don’t really change as the story progresses, what I feel for them at the beginning is generally how I feel throughout the story.
Here it was different...I loved Max and Maggie, but was incredibly frustrated by each of them and their decisions at various points. You can say I even disliked them at points, maybe even hated. Same with Cole, I loved him at the start...grew to hate him by the end of Uncovering Maggie, then ended up loving him again. KT always puts my emotions through the ringer, but here it felt turned up tenfold. And it was wonderful.
As I said, up until those scenes at the lodge I felt sure Max and Maggie would figure out a way to each other at the end, and if that somehow didn’t happen, I figured I would be really upset. And I admit to feeling somewhat melancholy after reading it initially, as my initial reaction was that Max had ultimately lost.
But as I read it closer a second and third time, I fell in love with a fourth character, the wonderful Keely, and realized in the end Max didn’t lose at all. He’s no runner up, not when he has HER. That scene on the balcony, which first made me a little sad and mournful for Max’s loss, now makes me joyous for all he has. And all he’s about to gain.
For me, KT’s story are all about the struggle and growth of characters, and how they get to the other side in a better place. They have horrible things happen to each other, and often do horrible things to each other. But they use those things, and the lessons they learned from experiencing them, to get to their place of happiness at the end. Every relationship is a little different when we leave them, but all seem to be in the place they’re meant to be, at least for me as a reader. And they all have one thing in common: they leave me wanting more.
Though at the same time, I don’t want more, because I don’t want to see these characters go through pain again. I just want to think good thoughts for them. So there’s that roller coaster of emotions again. I’m sure I’ll be feeling that way soon about new characters, or if we get continued journeys of Charlie and Jonny, Nelson and Natalie, or any of the other characters we’ve met along the way. But these four we’re just leaving now will stay with me for a long time.
To show how these stories stay with me, I confess often times afterward I devise new epilogues for them, to work through my thoughts on where I think they’ll be, and also to just keep thinking of them in my head frankly. They usually just stay in my head, but occasionally I write them down solely for my amusement...and probably my sanity lol. They don’t have the great mix and love, drama and trauma of KT...they’re only happy thoughts.
DeleteAs I woke up this morning, I had a couple thoughts on these four as well. I have a pretty good picture of Max and Keely’s wedding, which I suspect would happen about a year after the end of the last epilogue, but I can really see a point about a year in advance in that, and will probably be writing about it when I get free time in the evenings this week.
I see Max peering into the window of a hospital nursery, intently looking at a sleeping newborn, with wispy strands of fiery red hair just like her mother. His daughter June. Then I hear the voice of another little girl calling out to him, and he turns around to see her reaching out for him from her beaming mother. These two aren’t his, but in the end they still are in a way. It’s his goddaughter and Maggie excitedly visiting the newest arrival of the family. And they are a family.
I’m looking forward to exploring that scene more in my head tonight. I’m almost in tears now just thinking of it...just have to work Keely and Cole in there.
Jesus, JL. That was beautiful; literally made my eyes swell up.
DeleteJL - Really good stuff. I hope in my insomnia-induced diatribe I didn't lose sight of the emotional component that (at risk of understating), is absolutely front and center of a KT novel. To how I understand KT's work, the roller coaster is integral. It isn't about feeling so cozy you want to vomit at how cheesy it is, because there's some sort of karmic balancing act that takes place in every story. With all the good feels, comes the bad, that's part of the unsettling nature of reading a KT story. The ever present feeling (good or bad) that whatever you're feeling right now will have an equal and opposite reaction.
DeleteI love that! It's life! I want life when I read fiction. Obviously not totally to life, because that'd probably be boring, but if you can make me believe what I'm reading, then mission accomplished. And when it comes to how I evaluate the characters, that too will vary, because no one has perfectly ideal qualities. We've talked endlessly about the good and bad aspects of Maggie, Max, and Cole. I want that balance, it makes me think endlessly about what they are doing/what they did! If they were archetypes, well, we know what that would be, simple and easy to digest. Thank you KT, for never making it that simple!
For example:
Good Max-
Thoughtful, giving in the ultimate sense (relationship-wise), smart, engaging
Bad Max-
Withdrawn at times, indecisive when it matters, poor choice of actions at other times
Perfection!
TBTH I agree...the reasons these stories are great is because all the characters come across as human, with good points and faults that combine for great reading. Even the "villains" are not caricatures.
DeleteThe "heroes" speak to me because they remind me an awful lot of myself and my own struggles at times. I see a lot of myself in Max's introversion and indecisiveness. And Pete is the guy I try to say I'm not but I too often am. Geoff at his best is the kind of man I aspire to be and occasionally am. God I love them each in their complicated way.
JL - I have a similar desire when it comes to things that I really like to think on them and let my mind wander, but unlike you I tend to depress the shit out of myself, lol. There's this lingering specific scenario I've had for a long time, I can't remember after what book, but now has a little bit more voice to its premise and it takes place shortly after much of this story takes place (i.e. still in college).
DeleteIt's this moment where it's spring ... Lacrosse season ... and Maggie and Max are together getting ready because they are going out to watch the game. Maggie's excited, Max tries to match it, but he's just perplexed that Maggie, who doesn't give a shit about sports gets so into Lacrosse. Truth is she really just admires the skill and grace that Cole plays with. She's enthralled with the game, especially when you know who gets the ball. Max is just lost this particular day in how rapt Maggie's attention is with it. She even starts to sing the Farmington Fight Song, she never sang it once in her entire time at Farmington.
Since they became an official trio, that makes this scenario a little bit more understandable. I didn't think it would happen if Max got shut out of the relationship during the time of this story (before the epilogues obviously).
Yeah, as much as I don’t want to see it, I think imagining those first few months and years after the lodge is interesting. Seeing how the dynamic slowly changed. And I would really like to see that Keely and Max meeting. Did Maggie really talk up Max before that, or did Keely just dig him immediately. I think she probably spent months complaining to Maggie about all the “assholes” she dated, and when she met Max she just knew.
DeleteDuring work I put together a great scene in my head with Maggie, Max and Cole hanging out the night before his wedding. Now I’m struggling to remember it all and write it down. I was trying not to be too obvious that I wasn’t focused on work. Thankfully it was a slow day.
I should also say that typically in these stories I tell myself I’m not going to emotionally invest in the characters and just enjoy the fantasy and the brilliance that is KT writing erotic scenes. Just my opinion, but I think you’re the best at it. And usually that works for a while, but something always happens that sucks me in, and I begin to root for an outcome while dreading what might be coming.
ReplyDeleteWith Nia and Geoff, it was a scene toward the end of one book, when Geoff is looking down at Nia at the lake with his sister, wondering just who this women he was desperately in love with really was.
Here it was two moments. First, after The Poirot when Maggie leaves upset and Cole chases her down, and her first reaction is still to kiss him and almost have sex with him again. And also the scene where she arrives with Cole without her blue hair and informs Max she wants to go to law school...at Harvard with Cole.
After moments like these, the pull of the erotic scenes fade for me and I focus almost solely on the emotions of the characters, and my own emotions reading it as I desperately cling to signs that the outcome I want to happen will happen. Curious if anyone else has this abrupt change as well. I don’t think it’s a bad thing; I almost feel like I’m reading two different stories, each of which I enjoy in a different way.
@JL23
ReplyDeleteWhen a story grips me, I let it suck me up and I dive right, especially with the way KT writes and how she always explains what everyone is thinking. Emotionally separating myself would likely allow me to view scenes more objectively but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want it to suck me up and the earlier the better.
But that's how KT writes, she's in her characters heads and those are the parts that are so fascinating. That's the part that other writers don't get quite right, they miss a lot of character's thoughts that I have to fill in the blank for. And by doing so, it forces me to think objectively and logically, and that separates me from the characters because most of the time the conclusion I find is shallow and causes me to lose interest. This story gripped me hard and it unsettled me many times. It started from Max's perspective, so that's what latched onto me, and the detail combined with the unknown left me bruised. "What is Maggie thinking right now?" So many moments left Max (and me) in the dark, at the perfect moments, and all he could do was stare at the scene blankly until his eyes turned red and I can't say I'd do much differently in his shoes.
I had to stand up and walk around several times per book to clear my head and remind myself that it's just a story. Of course I sat back down and promptly finished it, because that's what I want to feel. I want that dread and joy and wonder. That's why I read, the emotions that you can feel that are only temporary because it really is just a story. I think I'd have a hard time intentionally separating myself emotionally from the story so I could look at it more objectively, maybe not miss so many clues. Normally I'd be afraid of losing interest but I don't think that would happen with a KT novel, so maybe it's worth a shot. For me, though, the eroticism only intensifies as I focus on the emotions of the characters.
@2B=2H
Delete'Navigating the grey area' is a great way to describe it. This story had an unusual premise, but beyond the that, everything else was very real. The emotions, the motives, the manipulation. It makes it very difficult at times because of that. I almost noped out of this story several times but curiosity always got the best of me and I was rewarded for it. So maybe not quite tall enough, or just tall enough for this ride. It's the..indiscretions that make it difficult. It's not as simple as measuring those indiscretions and comparing them, either. How could you even do that? But if I could, and believe me I tried, I would say Max's indiscretions were the lesser of the three evils so naturally I cheered for him. But it's all grey and no person here deserves to be acquitted. And while there may have been a lot of mishaps along the journey for all three characters, in the end, they all safely found their paradise.
@ John C
DeleteThat stoicism you describe is something you have more much more than I do. I thought I had a lot, but now maybe not. When I come into this board, my fingers are shaking and I'm eager to talk about whatever thing bothered me but your comments are always sound and sometimes with a touch of a humor. I think anyone has to have a touch of stoicism to make it through this kind of story, and you have it in abundance my friend.
Yea it works until KT puts baby in the amoire then all my logic goes out the window like Mr Spock going into Pon farr.
DeleteOmg Both a dirty dancing and a trek ref in one...fascinating ..oops i did it again...hmmm was that olympic gold or brittany. Ok stopping now...
One of the many big attractions to KT style is emotional connection i develope with the charactors i read elsewhere how you guys feel about the stories and couldn't agree more. Its a bit theraputic for me. I always try to insert humor it helps remind me it's fiction i just experienced and any similariry to persons living or past is purely coincidnetal. Cole happens to be similar to someone i know. So is pete.
Yea it works until KT puts baby in the amoire then all my logic goes out the window like Mr Spock going into Pon farr.
DeleteOmg Both a dirty dancing and a trek ref in one...fascinating ..oops i did it again...hmmm was that olympic gold or brittany. Ok stopping now...
One of the many big attractions to KT style is emotional connection i develope with the charactors i read elsewhere how you guys feel about the stories and couldn't agree more. Its a bit theraputic for me. I always try to insert humor it helps remind me it's fiction i just experienced and any similariry to persons living or past is purely coincidnetal. Cole happens to be similar to someone i know. So is pete.
@2b=2h
ReplyDeleteMaybe next time we'll be on the same team!! Wouldn't that be fun?
I'm feeling sappy and sentimental now. I loved the song that was played during the dance at the wedding and I love when stories use music. I'm not sure if this blog will let me post a youtube link, but I'd like to share a song that reminds me of the ending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWZ6g-xP9YM
ReplyDeletePost songs that remind you of this story, let's make it a chain. My playlist has plenty of room to grow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R19uQyfwqhg is a good one to. I've made like 10 comments now, gotta lay off and get back to work!
DeleteAlright, one more. Bone Dry by Tristram. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm8UTv6LSf0
DeleteI listen to music while I work, couldn't help myself.
I really liked these. Putting them in the context of Max and loss, and Maggie, and all she meant to him, made me tear up. I fucking hate music.
DeleteThat's the best part :)
DeleteFound one for Keely too: Heartsigh by Purity Ring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPh51zP0UhA
Oh shit, found another one. This song is greaaaaaaat.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me6-An5AbE4
Since I enjoy sharing tears with you guys, a couple songs that were personally affected by this story. I've already shared one song by this artist, but this song (which is actually about the forbidden romance of homosexuality and trying to get married in anti-gay cultures) felt like it could be from Maggie's perspectives.
DeleteA couple key lines -
"Petrol blues" Cole's eyes ... KT likes to refer to eyes by their colors, his "blues" are his blue eyes. The lyrics probably has nothing to do with that but, yeah.
"saut dans le vide" means 'into the void' in French. I'm about to write a little blurb on the void left when thinking about the meaning of love from Maggie.
"I've found a love to love like no other can" How many love stories start like Maggie and Cole's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtmrYisoxXA
Finally, after Uncovering Maggie, I kind of thought that Ken was going to have to pick up the pieces from Maggie's situation, and this song came to mind from it. It's about addiction, I believe, but it produces the requisite emotion of trying to help your sister through her trauma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-crVagUok
KT, these are just a couple leftover thoughts from over a year of obsession-
ReplyDeleteRavens - I'm struggling to connect the events where ravens appear in this book, but you had them appear twice in the last story, after only appearing in Sharing Maggie. Are you trolling me because I asked you about their significance and you barely care about symbolism?
Nietzsche - you're writing erotica, and yet his name and concepts come up twice (that I'm aware of). I have a sneaking suspicion why, but can you elaborate there?
Is perspectivism your suspicion?
DeletePerspectivism is the most accurate. I don't include mentions of Nietzsche as any sort of purposeful hidden message or anything, but a lot of my characters are exploring moral nihilism, and stepping over the line that marks off constructs of fidelity and honor.
DeleteAnd: The raven is so deep with meaning you can make it appear in a book and argue anything with it, depending on which source culture you wish to attribute. But for the sake of this book I'm referencing the Native American symbolism (the rug where they sit). So change/transformation, holding the truth that you can't see.
In the interest of efficiency for me, I'm honestly narrowly focusing on the specific thoughts I had, which ignores the unbelievable amount of thought others had in this thread. Keep it up everyone!
DeleteJust to be clear as I preface this thought, I don't REALLY know shit about Nietzsche's philosophy. I have ideas from people who talk about his philosophy, but I know he was a 'moral nihilist' as you say and definitely saw that relevance in the story as Maggie looks off to Cole's room walls about to engage in 'practice.'
My original thought is the 'abyss' that is created when looking into Maggie's eyes, and I guess it ultimately does relate to perspectivism. That's more accurate than my original thought. Max, as he looks on to Cole and Maggie at the lodge, ends up staring into Maggie's eyes for much of their romp. The 'abyss' feeling is the state that I felt when trying to think about what her smile and rapt eye-contact meant. Mostly, it was the state of feeling like I understood what that meant before that moment, a love that was meant exclusively for Max. That genuine eye contact and smile signified a bond that no one else shared. In this moment, to have that same emotional connection be redefined as he watched Maggie express her love for Cole, created that pit of the stomach ache that I talked about yesterday, the feeling of being 'unsettled.'
It relates to perspectivism though I suppose, doesn't it? Max can't know what Maggie really feels because he isn't her, and what's worse, is Maggie might not fully know either. She was looking back with a love she felt for Max, but possibly didn't realize that it was beginning to pale in comparison to the one growing with Cole. Her inability to recognize that or to minimize it because she does still love him led to some unrelenting torture trying to find that warm feeling that came from Maggie's eyes on his. Because she kept doing it, all it did was keep confusing me because though it might mean the same thing to Maggie, it's value to her and to Max by extension, was clearly changing.
JL23 An interloper's input into these impressive insights: That scene over pizza absolutely crushed me. I admit I pulled back after that. When Max didn't take a stand, I had to retreat. I wanted so much for him to be strong, object, get angry, even leave her. Nothing.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the role of the handsome Cole who could read women's sexual desires and fufill them just pissed me off. The idea of a guy who ALL (I believe caps were used in the story too) women wanted just brought out my insecurities. I skimmed a lot after that to medicate the inevitable pain Max would experience.
Such a wuss.
Wess...welcome to the forum. Yeah, that scene really hit me. Still the worst for me is her confession of love for Cole at the lodge...I think even he was shocked at the depth of Maggie’s feelings for him.
DeleteOn Cole, I think there’s always going to be a little “fantasy” built in with the bull. They’re often a little too perfect in order to make the distinction between the beta and make them real threats. I think Cole was very human in other respects, and genuinely loved Max. I had my moments with him, but I like him. And those parts of Max I totally get...as I said he reminds me of me, particularly at that age. He loved her too much to leave.
Wess has been around for a while, I think. Hi, Wess.
DeleteOn a similar vein, the following people I am hoping have read and will post.
Guhrka
Edi
DW
Please stand up. There's no way they'll see this, lol
Sorry then Wess...didn’t recognize you before. I tend to post more at the end of the story than I do the middle chapters, so I probably missed you.
DeleteWhat do I know? I thought I saw this screename before but anyways, hi Wess.
DeletePizza scene hit me hardest. Lodge scene was a heavy blow, but by then I was ready for the worst. Also wasn't the only time Max frustrated the crap out of me by not saying anything.
DeleteI felt like an interloper when I started posting here a few chapters back. It was kinda shocking reading a bunch of comments of people praising Cole when I thought of him the way you did and also thought that he was a complete shit for intentionally manipulating his best friend so he could steal his girl. To be fair, it wasn't cut and dry at that point, I just had my suspicions.
But reading all those comments opened me up to be more understanding of their behavior and how it effects the rest of their lives. I think I might have called Cole 'evil' at one point, or something similar. I don't think that anymore, generally he seems like a kind person, but that one thing he did was so offensive to me. I don't think I'll ever come around to liking him.
DeleteThere s a flipping point when cole goes from "well this is fun" to "wow this could be permanent" KT does a good job of hiding that point. Somewhere in there i started bot likeing Cole. Possible at the video of the cheating confession...
DeleteWA - I sometimes wonder if I read KT's stories from true beginning to end if I could give them the same level of thought in their individual parts that I am able to do based on her release style. And to be honest with myself, probably not. I feel like I would fail to miss the significance of little interactions that take place in Tempting or Sharing, etc. because the story continued. So I can see how if (since you were new) that you would maybe overlook or whatever some piece that could change your mind if you were forced (like yours truly) to obsess on them for weeks and weeks.
DeleteI really would like to hope that loving Cherry Blossoms would have still happened. Have you started that yet? Youve got to!
Not saying that the release style is the cause, you're entitled to the opinion and I wouldn't disagree with it, Cole even admits he originally was trying to take Maggie for himself. That said, regardless now that you're getting used to her release style, you're fucked. :)
TBTH - I am here...HI guys ;)
DeleteI was wrong about Cole doing something evil, but I still hold that he's a piece of shit. Best friends just don't do that kind of thing to each other. And the fact that he seemingly "loved" Max only makes his actions more offensive. The amount of selfishness and self entitlement needed in those moment to focus on that path of decisions for weeks is insane to me. He even apologizes to Max for trying to sleep with her in his dorm room. Was that him truly feeling bad about what he was doing or was he trying to get Max off his back so he could work Maggie a little longer? I don't know. Those things implicate way different things. Even if its the only bad thing he ever does, it's enough for me to never trust him ever again.
Delete@John C, I was suspicious when he started getting frisky with her in the dormroom. The "fake cheating" scene is what made it obvious, though. Also highlighted Max's inability to speak up. Maybe you guys can help me out with this one. Why did Max agree to that? What scenario plays out in that hotel room where Max is happy that he agreed with Cole to let it happen? Cuz I'm drawing blanks.
I think cole manipulated hin into thinking maggie wanted it. Which he confessed at the truth pow wow.
Delete@WorldsApart...I think Max agreed to the hotel room because Cole (the master manipulator) led him to believe this was another fantasy of Maggies. I mean was it? or was that video of Cole coercing her his fantasy? Was this a cruel joke of haha i got your girl?
DeleteYeah, it wasn't a fantasy of Maggie's. Her reaction and the fact that she chose Cole and not Max (knowing their principles) is evidence of that, at least.
DeleteI know why he allowed it to happen. It's just that there's no scenario where Max wins there. I get that he has hangups with Maggie and can't seem to express himself to her and doesn't want to lose her so he goes along with her decision making, but why did those hangups extent to Cole? Privately?
Was that situation really acceptable to Max? Him assuming that Cole was right and she wanted to cheat. Sitting there in the closet, watching it happen and watching her not care about doing it? How in the world did he agree to that when THAT is the best case scenario? That's not at all what he wanted, yet, in private conversation with Cole, he allowed himself to be tricked into a no win situation. Just Cole, probably sweaty from lacrosse practice, calling him "bro".
That was enough? Really? That's when I was like..Alright dude, you lost me. I was with you for a while but holy fuck. Say anything.
my sentiments exactly...
Deletewow...I guess I've been away too long! I have a lot of catching up on comments. First , KT a very good read as usual...BUT I am saddened and disappointed in the finale. Why can't the cuck ever win?? I mean I guess Geoff & Pete sort of win in the end, but the heartache they endure to get there far outweighs winning. I had high hopes for Max's plea "Please don't take her from me", but I think I had a feeling at the opening when looking at the alter Maggie was not walking to Marry Max..but i read on...
ReplyDeleteI was intrigued by the scenes in the cottage and was shocked and impressed by Coles embrace to share..but i knew he was after the WIN. He may have loved Max at one time, but his backhanded comments along this journey and the ending of the last book showed his true colors. He was after Maggie he just had to wait until she was ready to completely give max up, he knew what he was doing, master manipulator that he is. SMH so disappointed that Max could ignore his kinky nature to keep the girl
As for Keely, I kind of remember her from early on in the series, but I would have liked more background on how they hooked up, how she became to know about the 3some and how she handled max being in love with another yet stayed to get him to love her. But, does he love her? Is she just a fill-in for what he once had? Can he really love again after Maggie? Seems unreal. And her, how does she stand being the other woman? Can she truly believe he will ever lover her the way he loves (STILL LOVES) Maggie? As a woman I couldn't play second fiddle to ANYONE!
UGH I have so much to say...
KT know that I still love you, and like your characters I'll be faithful to you as always...just sad :(
DW
DW let me just say I see a lot of the points you are making. But after reading it a few more times I came around on what happens here. You can read my many, many (many) posts scattered through here. I won’t go into everything again.
DeleteIn short, I think Max’s journey in this chapter gets him to the point where he is fully committed to Keely. I think he was always in love with her, but there was still a piece of him that couldn’t completely let go of Maggie. I think he does at the end. So while when I first read it I was sad for him, now I’m happy.
Also on Cole, I agree with you I hated him at the end of the last book, but I came back around on him here. What I think: In the last book, he was coming to terms with the fact that not only did he love Maggie, she was the one for him. For a guy like Cole, a player, that was probably a new feeling, one he didn’t fully know what to do with. I think that was all he could see, and it clouded a lot of his actions toward Max...he didn’t see his best friend, only the guy standing in the way of him and Maggie.
DeleteI think at the lodge, when Maggie tells them her feelings, Cole knows he’s won. And I think that allows him to soften to Max and see his friend again. And see that his friend is incredibly hurt, and will be even more so if they just ace him out. So he agrees to the threesome again, and over the course of the ensuing years doesn’t try to push Max out.
I think he cares about and loves Max. There was a time he couldn’t see that, but at the end here he does.
LOL I have just spent the last 3 hours reading every reply to these many threads on the book. We lost power for a few days so I had some things to get in order!
DeleteHey JL..i see what you might mean about Cole, but have you thought of his reaction when Maggie asked Max to "Come with us, Come with us to Harvard. I don't want to be without you." Cole was NOT on board with that, wonder why? Probably because it was always his intention to complete the steal process while they were away from Max.
DW
I went back and read that, and I think there isn’t enough information to gauge what Cole is thinking. He only says “lots of work opportunities in Boston.” You can possibly read that as him trying to tip the scales to keep Max from Harvard. But it’s not like Boston is far from Cambridge, so I also think that could be Cole trying to offer a way from Max to stay close to them without having to go to Harvard per se. Cole knows Max and is aware it was never his dream to go to graduate school, that he wanted to work first.
DeleteFor me, Cole probably could have pushed out Max anytime he wanted in those 4 or so years after the lodge, before Max meets Keely and everyone knows their place. Maybe he doesn’t because he fears Maggie will raise hell and maybe even leave him, but I choose to believe based on the evidence that he didn’t try because he loves Max and didn’t want to hurt him anymore than he already had.
DW, I am so glad to see your comments! I should have known you were right there with us (at least reading-wise) this whole time. I only want to say that I am glad someone else sees the flaws in the ending with Max and Keely and their long-term future. I haven't been able to really dig deep into what the comments others have made about this topic, and I don't disagree with their long-term possibility, but given the events of the extremely recent past (that is before Max and Keely had their series ending conversation) there really was nothing to prove that both of them were ready to truly commit to one another exclusively. Yeah, right now, and I believe that it is absolutely possible that they could, but it's too soon to tell. And, given the evidence and history, I have my doubts.
DeleteI'm glad KT did that too, by the way (ending it at Maggie and Cole's honeymoon), because it's satisfying to only a point. Then I have to turn around and think, "hey, wait a minute..."
@DW- during the read i grew to not like Cole very mucb. Then i started not liking maggie then i lost tespect for Max at different points. So i really had to sort out a few things for myself. The firat if which was this wasnt Coles game. Cole went into this reluctantly. He did his due diligence. Maggie openned up the can of worm/s first with her dream lover named cole and the blow job on the beach. The first crack appears.
DeleteOnce he saw max on board with what was happening. It was game on. Anything he did after that was to be with maggie more ans more. Which means less and less for max. So i coukdnt really blame cole, i couldnt figuire Maggie out because she pushed back to make sure was included and coniltinued to profess hsr love for him.
Max itked me for not being more confrontational.
With maggie playing both sides i couldnt figuire out who she was gonna choose so i resigned to hoping it was the one she loved most and loved her back. Yea i still feel they Mags and cole strung Max along for a few years unwilling to rip the off the bandaid as it were. Because they both loved him they coukdnt bave him lurking in thr shadows (or closet) all hurt, sad and lonely.
I woukd have liked to have been a fly on ths wall when maggie breaks the news to max she was gonna marry cole. Or cole tells max hes gonna propose. Dobyou think he did it in front of max. They all go out for dinner together and cole gets on his knee.
The food thing is he has a gurl who will be faithful to him now. Both of them, all of them.
To be fair, Max was with Keely for a few years before Cole/Maggie got married. So thankfully he didn't have to confront shit like that. Can you imagine, though? Holy shit..
DeleteHi TBTH you know I am always close by ;)
DeleteAs for Mad & Keely, as in true KT form we don't actually know how that all came about..so it's not really fair to say it was ok to marry Cole & Maggie since Max & Keely were already together for 2 plus years...I hope for Keely sake Max wasn't forced into a love he doesn't want nor fully commit to...I mean seriously as a woman, is Keely really ok with his love for Maggie?
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY WOULD HE LET HER SLEEP WITH COLE??? And Maggie for that matter?
Ok I have to take a break :)
DW
Yea, like I said I wish we saw more of Max and Keely's early days. But we see Max's struggle with it. I think when we pick it up, he is truly in love with Keely, but there is still that part of him mourning the loss of Maggie. But I think he gets there fully in the end.
DeleteI don't see it as a love forced on him. Maggie and Cole just made the introduction, what Keely and Max have they built themselves. If he wasn't into Keely, if she didn't do so much for him, he wouldn't still have been with her at this point. You can see when he's with her alone...that relationship is not one he doesn't really want, where he's just going through the motions.
I agree with you on Keely, but there is evidence she's at least a little concerned. The scene towards the end where Maggie asks her to leave her alone with Max, you see concern. As KT said in an earlier post to my question on that...Keely is young and understands heartbreak. She's willing to help Max and wait for him to get there fully on his own because she's in love with him and he's worth the wait. But if he was still pining for Maggie a few more years down the road, I don't think she would stand for it.
On Keely with Cole...Max is a cuckold, he's excited by seeing a woman he loves be taken by the "better" lover. That hasn't changed. But he's 27 now, older and more mature, and more secure in Keely's love for him. He knows she's not leaving him for Cole, and Cole has Maggie so he's not going to try and take Keely. Having her sleep with Cole once in a while is just a fun game.
With Maggie, KT talked about that in a post. If it was totally up to her, Cole probably wouldn't be sleeping with Keely. But she allows it because she loves Max and knows he's into it, and isn't really threatened by Keely...she knows she's in love with Max. Plus it allows her to safely explore some of her other kinks.
Wouldn't that be something, though, if Cole tried to steal Keely? I'd come to this board fuming and everyone would start telling me how much Cole loves Max. Hahahaha...Oh Max, I'm so sorry. Feels good to laugh about it.
DeleteMy take on Max and Keely's early days: Maggie spent a lot of time with Keely, and heard a lot about her love life. She knew Keely dated "assholes" and was tired of them. She wanted to meet a nice guy, a guy who would be there for her. So they make the intro to Max.
DeleteMax likely knew exactly what they were doing and fought it initially. Keely probably saw he was still in love with Maggie. But they still hit it off initially, so both said why not and dated without any pressure for a while...maybe just hung out together as friends, away from Cole and Maggie.
Over time, Max began to see how much Keely got him, how she was devoted to him and making him happy. He fell in love with the girl Keely was, and needed her in his life. But he couldn't quite shake the sense of loss over Maggie. For Keely, she probably quickly saw the Max we do and fell in love. She knew Maggie loomed in the background, but she saw how Max was with her when it was just them. So she then set about winning him over completely. She took the risk that Max could break her heart.
@WA if Cole ever tried to steal Keely, he is a total asshole and every bad thing anyone has ever said about him is justified. I certainly wouldn't even attempt to defend him then.
DeleteHaha I know, I'm only kidding (a little bit).
DeleteNo Cole, not Keely! No! No!!
Also on Maggie with Keely and Cole, notice Maggie remains in control of that at all times. She stops it before Cole comes. She tells Keely "don't you think you've had your fun now?" When her husband comes, its inside her and Max and Keely get to be the creampie cuckolds.
DeleteTranslation: I'm in charge here, at all times. She'll let her Maxy have his fun and get his rocks off, but she won't let it get past a certain point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ
DeleteI agree with you about Maggie, that clip was a reaction to Cole trying to steal Keely
DeleteLol...If I was Cole, I’d be more worried about Maggie than Max if he ever did go after Keely. She would literally cut his nuts off then.
DeleteHaha, yeah she would.
DeleteAs for their foursome, I did notice the trepidation that you talked about from Keely. But other that, none of my spidey senses were alarmed at what was happening. That scene seemed more like suitable closure for Max's relationship with Maggie (for me, at least). It showed that they've moved on enough to view sex as just as a good time. Even Keely with Cole -- just didn't bother me. Keely had proved to me at that point that she was devoted to Max, something Maggie never quite did. She did at first but then proved that her words carry less meaning than I'd like.
Then their private conversation after they left, showed me that they're just friends. Didn't read into more than that.
As far as the trepidation, given where Max started, he's on the path to be free of Maggie. I have no reason to think Keely and Max can't go the distance. And Keely is an angel for riding the storm.
Completely agree WA, it’s a fun game for all of them now. And they are all very conscious of making sure everyone is good with what’s happening. No reason to be worried.
DeleteAnd I get the sense this is something they only do every once in awhile. I don’t think they’re doing this every weekend. Most of the time they’re just hanging out together like any other couples who are great friends do.
Just seeing the question on Maggie and Cole getting engaged, and how it impacted Max. I think that almost certainly happened after he started dating Keely. Once they saw Max was in love and moving on without them, they probably felt it was OK for them to move forward as well. Though I'm sure it was also hard for Max, like the wedding was. But he had Keely...I bet it drew those two even closer together.
DeleteIn reading through everyone’s thoughts the last few days, and especially the ones who waited to comment, I kind of think your thoughts on the story boil down to 2 fundamental questions. Believe me, there are a lot of other questions and thoughts this story has created, but I think there are 2 fundamental ones everyone feels one way or other on. One is more about the reader’s perception of the story I think, and the other is about the reader’s perception of what kind of ending this is for Max.
ReplyDeleteThe first fundamental is what your thoughts were on what Cole and Maggie choose to do post lodge...keep Max involved as a 3some while simultaneously growing closer as a couple and falling in love. If you feel that was an act of kindness, that it gave Max the time to heal and find himself, then you probably see this as a happy ending. If you feel they should have just “ripped the band aid off” and broke it off with him, then you probably feel a little unsettled at the end.
The second fundamental is Do you think Max is truly happy, and committed to Keely on that balcony at the end? Or do you think he is still pining for Maggie, at least partly, and will never be able to commit? If you think he’s happy and committed, then this is a happy ending, a real happy one. If you don’t, then this ending is still quite sad.
I think everyone knows how I feel, but I fully admit I was on the other side of both questions after I first read it so I understand those who are. This story really makes you think, there are always “grey areas” as someone put it in KT stories, but there may be even more here. And those can be really fun to break down, as the comments here show.
So as the conversation on this inevitably starts to slow down, and we get ready for the next journey, thanks again to KT for providing such a thought provoking experience, and a wonderful story. I think everyone can agree with that no matter what side of the line you fall on with those 2 questions.
For 1) I'd be team rip off the bandaid. I agree that what they did was out of love, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Delete2) Truly happy. I was excited for Max the moment Keely was re-introduced as a character and love interest.
yea gotta say I'm with WA on this I wished they would have ripped the band aid off. I think that as friends do they'd move apart but I think over time they'd come back together again, as friends do. we know max and Cole are best buds but there has to be others not as best but at least buds. Max could hang with the xbox crowd for a time. They would occasionally bump into one another on campus at least until grad.
DeleteI think that those moments would be healing times. bringing them back together. unless max specifically makes Maggie and Cole sneak up on him.
maybe Maggie donates some pussy for a pity party a couple of times. the threesome takes place but with an understanding of whose who.
Was happy for Max to have an understanding, smoking hot rebounder. I think Keely wont have to wait long for the whole max/Maggie thing to fall away. When not around Maggie Max will be very content and happy every time they are together he will have to keep growing a thicker and thicker hide. At the honeymoon the wounds are still healing the scabs are gone but the pink flesh is still tender. Time heals all he'll get over Maggie and probably is most of the way there by the wedding.
♫Falling away, falling away♫
DeleteJohn you hit on a good point...we re-enter things during the wedding and honeymoon. Of course that was going to drag up painful memories for Max. I’m sure on a normal day, when he was just hanging with Keely, he wasn’t even thinking about Maggie and his “loss” at all. He was probably just enjoying being with Keely...clearly they have a very fun playful relationship, and a more than OK sex life.
DeleteAlso Keely is so patient and understanding with him because she understands this particular time was always going to be hard, and it’s probably not something that happens a lot. If it did maybe she would question the relationship more.
DeleteCaptain obvious here. Cole and maggie knew they were going to get married at some point. So i wonder how long they waited before telling Max. That he had keely was probably not too much of a factor as max was probably trying to hide his feelings from everyone anyway.
DeleteSome where max has to give up on his notion that he and maggie will have a future as a married couple. Thats probably when he starts showing affection to keely and spends less time with maggie and cole and more time with just Keely.
Correct me if im wrong but Max didnt meet keely in year one but year three i think. So Took probably couple of years for max to date Keely her steady patient approach to max helpes to push the idea that cole and maggie are a couple.
That first year with max had to be rough on Keely though. Can you imagine going on a date with someone and having the Marta expeeience every night.
"...And this picture here is me and mags hiking up the hill. Heres one of us bike riding at her parents place...."
That Keely didnt hang herself is a testament to her character.
John I think I replied to a similar question in the thread, but I can’t find it now lol. But here goes again, my best guess is they didn’t get engaged until after Max and Keely were seriously dating. Did they know they wanted to before that? Probably. But my guess is they didn’t out of respect for Max.
DeleteKT said at the time of the wedding Max and Keely were dating for about 2 years, and had known each other for a while before that. So I think they probably hung out for a while, just as friends and then began dating seriously. I’m sure Keely got there before Max did, but he clearly decided at a certain point to get serious with her.
I also don’t think it was the “Maggie show” while they spent time together. I’m sure it was initially, but I bet it didn’t last a year. Max and Keely seem to have a really fun playful and loving relationship. I bet when they were together he didn’t even mention Maggie much. It’s just when moments like the wedding come up, he can’t help but feel that loss. Probably why Keely is so understanding, as most times she sees the Max who is uttterly devoted and in love with her.
Like I mentioned offhandedly in one of my day late comments, I absolutely loved the moment where Keely, Connor, and Max are all watching the dance. Keely is such a beautiful pillar of strength for Max while also being lighthearted. Her laying into Connor for the umpteenth time about fucking up Max's engagement surprise was such an awesome comic relief moment to how heavy the dance and it's implications were.
DeleteNice synopsis JL but I'm feeling WA. They should have been honest with Max. I'm inclined to see their actions as asuaging their guilt. Maggie was downright cruel in the pizza scene and brutal at the lodge. I know she's young and warped by her repressive parents but still has to take responsibility for at least incredible insensitivity.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the ending with Max's new found love Keely, I needed more time to make that believable. It felt like a nice geature from KT but I wasn't invested.
Oh yeah, I will read anything KT writes. She pulls emotions from me like no other author.
Also not a Cole fan but I think KT wants us to like him. I think KT likes him (heh, heh), but he broke the always somewhat flexible “Bro Code”. I can get aound that. Stealing your best friend's fiance? Nope. He's an asshole. But I don't judge too harshly. Were I in his position and fell in love? I might be an asshole.
Wess, generally agree about Cole. I think he figured to take Maggie away even before he thought about a permanent arrangement. That was just big footing (or big somethinging, kt) Max, because he could. The Bro Code may not be quite black letter law (hmmmm, back to the bar exam again) but breaking it should have consequences, and for Cole there are none.
DeleteMy only defense of Maggie's behavior in the lodge and with the pizza is that Max should have taken the ring off once he learned that Maggie was a lot more than he could handle, after the closet view. He should have had enough self awareness to realize that intelligence, deceit, subterfuge and craft cannot always substitute for a big dick. But who wanted this to end five chapters ago?
I can see those points Wess...I excuse some of it because they're young and don't quite understand these complicated feelings. And its a complicated swirl of emotions that lead them to do what they do, some of them were for Max, and some of them were selfish too no doubt. There wasn't a perfect answer here I think, they did the best they could but they're human.
DeleteOn Keely, since we don't really see her until the end, we don't have the history with her, and her history with Max, that we do with the other characters. Their love didn't blossom and grow before our eyes, so we're asked to accept some fundamentals about their relationship. Makes me want that Keely and Max flashback even more...maybe as an "Easter egg" in the next story...Easter is coming up after all.
On Cole, my relationship with him...its complicated. I agree with you at the end...maybe the noble thing to do was for him to walk away, but how many of us could say we'd actually do that?
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteDonkatsu: Interesting about Cole. Did he get everything with no consequences? I suppose he did. He got Maggie, he saved his relationship with Max, he’s running in the Becker’s world which is exciting. Hey, that happens in life sometimes.
DeleteBut I would suggest his consequences may be down the road. He’s kind of “stuck” at Oxbow now. I think it’s safe to say that Max is going on to have a really successful career on Wall St...he’s going to make a lot of money, and it’s all on his own. Cole will have access to money, but it won’t really be his. And he’s going to see up close just how good Max has it. How’s that make him feel 10-15 years down the road? How’s it make Maggie feel?
Not saying any of this would happen, or that I’d wish for it to (I wouldn’t)...but maybe that’s his consequence.
@ JL23 One issue that I see with the first thing you said (about them not understanding their feelings) is that is you're sort of excluding the fact that Cole was in love with Maggie. He was, I don't doubt it. But if you're accepting that he was, you also have to accept that some things that Maggie and Cole chose to do cannot be written off as just inexperience and were done knowingly and intentionally, likely to the detriment of Max's development (imo). It's selectively choosing to accept something as a hard truth, that something often being just as likely to be a wrong choice because of inexperience, but not other things. I realize you're not saying they did the right thing, only that you're excusing what they chose to do. But I wanted to say that anyway.
DeleteCole's situation is complicated. Maybe there is no situation where he doesn't come out smelling like dog shit because if he loves Maggie then you gotta go after Maggie. But I think theres a scenario where he doesn't manipulate Max into thinking it's his fault.
Also, Cole would be stuck at Oxbow and with Carol anyway. Not really a punishment, just baggage. Donkatsu is right, I think. He violated the bro code and got off scot-free. That's because of the kindness of Max.
Delete@WA I see what you’re saying. For me, I don’t think there was a right, or perfect answer on what to do if you’re Maggie and Cole. I’m sure they consciously made some decisions on what to do about Max, but I guess I don’t necessarily see that as bad. And whether it was worse for Max is ultimately everyone’s personal opinion. I don’t think so, but I understand the reasons why you think it was.
DeleteWas Cole manipulating Max at times? Yes...but I think in ways they were all manipulating each other at various points. No one is innocent there IMO.
That makes sense, I see where you're coming from. But just for clarity, I think there was a right answer. Come clean, the earliest as possible because the worst thing you can do to someone is waste their time (short of murdering them). That's just my opinion. I won't drag on about this anymore, that was more for the newcomers sake than yours.
DeleteNo one is innocent but I'd say Max is the least guilty. I think Max visiting Ken in secret and being in the closet pales in comparison to what Cole did.
@WA. @JL You are right that Cole will pay a price for all of this, as he must toe the Becker family line and bow obsequiously to Martin and Carol, unless . . . . he is such a good player that he enlists Carol on his side against Martin.
DeleteSomewhere in between Cole and Tyler lies Casanova - not a big-dicked meathead like Tyler who just wants to take over someone else's love and life, and not a master player like Cole, who sees an objective worth sacrificing the game for. The Casanova wants to take someone's love away for a while, especially from his friends. He thinks he leaves the girl with a smile and fond memories and figures (1) he has shown himself to be the better man than the cuckold; and (2) enjoys the cuckold's anguish and torment at least a little bit, maybe a lot, and expects to interact with him socially in the future, adding a certain frisson to those future gatherings. Cole has at least a little of that in him, his conversations with Maggie showed that.
In my experience, expecting the woman or girl, as with Maggie, to stand up for the existing relationship is silly. Some girls like to see their men fight it out, even after they are "committed" and lots of men will not take no for an answer from a woman. It is the man's job to lay down the law, Bro Code or no. I speak from personal experience. Max is not capable of doing that with Cole or with anyone else who might be a credible rival. kt understood that about Max and engineered a second best solution for him and Keely, who has apparently been pumped and dumped enough in her short life to have acquired some wisdom on the subject.
Also the thoughts on Max and the band-aid scenario, I’m thinking back to my thoughts on Geoff...and it was the opposite to how I feel about Max. But I think that’s because Geoff was a 35-year old man who had lived life, and was dealing with the potential of a horrible truth. He needed to rip the “band-aid” off and find his way on his own, and he was mature and experienced enough to do so. But that was a really painful journey.
DeleteMax is still just a kid, I don’t know if he has the maturity and experience to do what Geoff does, what Geoff goes through. I really think it breaks him for a long time. The other way wasn’t perfect, but I still say it was the right one for Max.
Ahh, I think they're a little more mature than you think. Max being who he is, he would have forgiven them and they would have begged him to. With time, of course.
DeleteThe things that make them friends would still be there. And I think in that scenario, we might have seen real, proper remorse from Cole for how things went down. Maybe in that scenario he becomes human to me and I can forgive him. And then..a few years later after Max had his fun with Marta and maybe a few other girls, our duo can introduce him to Keely.
@WA I can see that line of reasoning. Perhaps Max would have forgiven them and came back to them on his own. Knowing Max I’m sure he would have. Like I said, there’s no perfect answer, no way not to have Max go through pain and loss.
DeleteOn Cole/Maggie and remorse, I would offer than we’re not privy to it as we don’t see that portion. When we pick it up 6 years later, they’re happy cause they’re getting married, and Max is in a pretty good place with a great woman he loves.
If we saw them at Harvard, especially pre Keely, I suspect we would see quite a bit of that. But we come back at a happy moment. Maybe I’m excusing them with that, though. Again I don’t know, everyone will see it a little differently.
There's also no perfect answer for peeling off a band-aid. It's gonna hurt no matter what so just rip it off so the pain doesn't last so long.
DeleteI'm personally for the ripping off the band aid too. I've been trying to rationalize that maybe that's just because I'm into monogamy, but these cats really aren't. So I don't know, maybe the band aid rip isn't necessary when they can have the physical fun they were having an ween each other off of the emotional connection.
DeleteI don't buy what I'm saying at all though, the emotions just naturally come out of the passion of sex, especially when it meant more than the act itself for so long. Max prolonged his suffering by allowing himself to continue being so close to them, like THAT.
That's what I'm missing! Remorse! I know they all told their truths at the lodge but I got very little in the way of remorse or regret from Maggie and Cole. I want to feel their pain and sadness. I felt so much of it from Max.
ReplyDeleteOK. I feel better. I guess I should go back to my job now.
@Wess...you may be my new favorite on this blog..and i have many!
DeleteExactly>>You said---"Also not a Cole fan but I think KT wants us to like him. I think KT likes him (heh, heh), but he broke the always somewhat flexible “Bro Code”. I can get around that. Stealing your best friend's fiance? Nope. He's an asshole. " I'm sorry I don't think after the last book when he kicked Max from the room while he & Maggie got busy....I was already not a fan, but I didn't have hatred..after that line I had hatred! Sorry KT...
DW
Cole is not the remorsing type, he's a "playa." He's still playing, but in a different game, with the Beckers and even with Maggie. He was firmly set on taking Maggie away from Max the minute Max let him in the door as the "safe" alternative to Jay. His interior dialogues tell us that unequivocally. That said, I agree with kt and the rest who see that Max could never hold on to Maggie once the Jay thing happened and Maggie learned that longer, wider, bolder, and higher T is better.
DeleteIf Max and Keely move away to raise their smaragdine-eyed children in the countryside or if Keely tires of Cole, will he pick up another gal for the occasional romp? Almost certainly, and almost certainly the wife or SO of a friend. That's who Cole is.
Just to clarify, Cole initially just intended to be a Casanova and take Maggie for a while. As kt and others noted, Cole did not change his objective to permanent displacement of Max until he went to RI (and especially after Carol gave Cole a tour of the playroom). It takes two to tango and Cole and Maggie started pumping each other up regarding the nature of their relationship (hey, get your minds out of the gutter, just because it's erotica doesn't mean everything is sexual, or maybe it does). As someone noted in this or another Maggie thread quoting Oscar Wilde: "Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power." That works pretty well here.
DeleteKT, I ask this all the time, can we get a "blooper" reel? Maybe some drafts of Max's impromptu wedding speech, for example?
ReplyDelete