Maggie Uncovered, Part 2
Well, we know from experience when these posts go too long they get garbled, so let's move our conversation to a new post ...
Before we get started, let's look at some of my motivation for the Maggie series:
Before we get started, let's look at some of my motivation for the Maggie series:
Thanks, KT!
ReplyDeleteI think most connect with this part of just Collins version of both sides.
ReplyDeleteRows and flows of angel hair
And ice cream castles in the air
And feather canyons everywhere
I've looked at clouds that way
But now they only block the sun
They rain and snow on everyone
So many things I would have done
But clouds got in my way.
Like the papa fritas song ....music to make love by 😉
Soo maglala huh...shes a cutie.
So music I think about when mag is with cole.... " hot magma" by lords of acid.
For max hoobastank "the reason"
For Maggie a bit off so but im going with vivaaldi. Concerto for lute.
Dang that's weird even foe me but its what comes out.
I'm obsessed with this Papa Fritas song, it's so 'on the nose' for this story.
DeleteIt's mostly the coincidental reading of this series and listening to this artist, but my song for Max's torment with Maggie's sexual freedom has been 'Take me to Church' Hozier.
DeleteSo much to unpack there...I think KT is trying to occupy us while we wait for the last chapter with all these easter eggs to decipher...lol. Don't have the time now, but will try later. Thanks KT!
ReplyDeleteHa! She knows she struck a chord with us and we are chomping at the bit... we are in need of distraction!
DeletePlenty to think about there!
DeleteWell I've seen Love Story, and (spoiler alert) that is anything but a happy ending. Not sure if Maggie and Max qualify as star-crossed lovers, but maybe they're about to be (or are Maggie and Cole the star-crossed lovers?) Rules of Attraction is set on a fictitious liberal arts college, and there is a love triangle involved. But its Bret Easton Ellis, so everything is even more twisted and nuts than our Max/Maggie/Cole affair could ever be. Not sure how the scene from the Royal Tennebaums fits in...I've only seen parts of that movie.
ReplyDeleteI'm not good at deciphering music lyrics, so I'll leave that to others.
The love.story angle.could be a story of opposites...instead of a sttict disapproving father we get a strict approving one.instead of a ill gf we get a sickly bf (of mind).
DeleteOf.course it could just be KT pulling our collective chain and throwing random youtubes up ...now that would be funny...lol. but I believe it's genuine.
Speaking of Love Story, I was thinking Maggie, Max, and Cole combined all have the traits of the Ryan O'Neil/Ali McGraw characters, but not perfectly aligned. Maggie is the free spirited artist like Ali's character, but she's not poor like her...quite the opposite. Her family is more like Ryan's character, who happens to be a Harvard Law student, like our man Cole plans to be. Max comes from the more modest background, at least I think he does, but Maggie's parents aren't dead set against him being with her.
DeleteAll of this is just my long winded way of saying I have no idea what any of it means. So maybe it is KT pulling our chain and having a little chuckle as we obsess...I wouldn't blame her lol.
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DeleteHaven't seen the movie in ages (but I got Andy Williams singing the theme song on my spotify..under "sleep" music.) But I believe the character of Cole is played by tommy lee jones...ryans bestie.
Delete@John C I’ve got that song in my Spotify Bawl Your Eyes Out playlist, along with about every Joni Mitchell song; it’s not the song I’dsleepto, more throw myself in a river to ...
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Delete...go canoeing, skinny dipping and/or canoodling provided the waters clean enough ;)
DeleteIf you like that try scorpions "winds of change" or boys 2 men "it's so hard to say goodbye"
To lighten things up i go to my strip music if you're feeling down try sexbomb by "lords of acid" o gor like 20 playlists .ballroom dancing , instrumentals, afore mentioned strip music, military stuff, old gob songs, rock, and 80s for a few. Makes my Bose minilink my favorite toy.
I'll join the "Depression Off" and contribute Perfume Genius entire 'Put your Back N 2 It' an album about a gay man's life. Ever want to feel awful for moving away? "Sister Song." Ever been desperate for love "Take Me Home." Seriously fuck this album.
DeleteI finished reading “Uncovering” the other night and was washed by a sadness for Max. He’s lived an incredible erotic fantasy and almost been subsumed by it. He’s lost control of it now and relied on his survival instincts. I’m hopeful, however, that KT will allow Max some insight that this is not the biggest mistake of his life and that he doesn’t bear the full weight of responsibility for this turn of events. (I know I’m speaking of these characters as if they are real, but they have a certain weight for me. And I like Max.) For all of Max’s encouragement of Maggie’s experimentation, she has been emotionally ready to be unfaithful to him from the opening of the first novella. (She had invited Jay to her dorm room; she was wearing Jay’s shirt; she was not forthcoming with Max about why he needed to leave.) While Max encouraged her to go further with Jay, she assuredly would have done so without Max’s encouragement—what her boyfriend witnessed from the closet were not the acts of a woman ready to draw a line. And while Max may have opened the door to her exploring, Maggie stepped through—and has both aggressively pushed the envelope on her own and succumbed to temptation.
ReplyDeleteIt would be great if KT provides Max the opportunity to make the confessions he intended to make before he entered the motel room. (Perhaps Max will be induced to answer Maggie’s mother’s call to the family home?) He won’t get past his own culpability without doing so, and Maggie might be forced to make a reckoning of her own in response. She has broken faith with Max; she has confessed to loving Cole in multiple inner monologues. At one point she thinks of Cole as the man for the grown-up Maggie—a thought full of terrible implications for any future marriage to Max. And when she wanted to celebrate her “win” with Jay’s father, she returned to Cole’s bed in the motel—no seeking out of Max, no waiting for Max, no apparent thought of her partner. Given those thoughts, I’m not sure I can see a way forward for Max and Maggie; she will always want the sexual thrills that Cole has shown her are possible.
Cole, of course, is the straw that stirs this plot. If Max opened the door and Maggie walked through it, then Cole has been attempting to slam the door shut in Max’s face from at least the second book. Cole is jealous of Max, and has encouraged Maggie’s separation from her fiancé—the dorm room scene in “Uncovering” showed Cole at his most manipulative. Perhaps Maggie will come to understand Cole’s manipulation.
Of course, there are loose threads that KT will certainly use to further agitate the waters. What’s up with Maggie’s brother’s duplicity? Have we heard the last of the video? What “win” does Maggie achieve in Professor Carmichael’s office? And, most of all, will Max see himself as worthy of more than Maggie? It might not make the greatest fiction if Max does, but I hope so.
Hi Tee Gee - Not sure if you've written on here before, but this was an excellent read. I appreciated the summary of what's in store for us (loose threads comment), I agree that I hope Max fights for Maggie, however futile it is!
DeleteI feel like all I do is defend the indefensible. Cole is equal parts asshole and well-intentioned as far as I'm concerned. Is it your contention that he manipulated everything that happened during studying, or maybe you are saying he took advantage of a situation to his favor? I don't see manipulation in Maggie's dorm room. I see two people that really like each other failing miserably at keeping their hands off one another when they know they are without Max. I think the motivation to study was legitimate, and if Cole was trying to elicit sex during study rime he would not have made sure to announce he would be alone with her. Or did he think it was inevitable she would tell Max they studied together? I feel like that kind of conversation a guy like Cole would have with Max would be left for after the fact. "Hey, Maggie and I ... uh ... studied," "really, what else happened?" "Nothing, she just needed help with the LSAT." I believe that Maggie probably convinced herself she wants to study with Cole because of course he would be an excellent resource, which is true, and makes her mixed rationale for being alone with Cole that much more intriguing to think about.
Cut to them actually studying, actually legitimately trying to get Maggie ready. They were flirting, they were always friendly flirting, but now it's been sexualized. They can act like they did before all they want, but they both know each other now, like THAT. That has been the problem from the beginning in my opinion. It's also why I don't understand why so many people think so poorly of Maggie and Cole's becoming an item. Maggie and Cole have a relationship too, it just never went sexual until Maggie took the plunge. They both have legitimate care for one another, and look compatible from the interactions in this story. They care about who each other are, deeply. Or at least as deeply as either of these characters are capable of caring. It's ignited something between them that is no longer containable. And, to me, makes perfect fucking sense.
The best argument I've seen that Cole is a monster who is lying about how much he cares about Maggie is that there is one more novel left in the series, otherwise what tangible proof have we that Cole is playing Maggie along? I think he deceived Maggie at the Poirot to make Maggie think it was all Max who made that evening possible, which is huge, but I chalk that up as more of a wuss who doesn't want to accept responsibility, and not a manipulator. Again, so no one mistakes me for taking sides, no one is innocent in this story.
I am curious why Max didn't get a buzz in his pocket that Maggie was headed back from Winslow Hall (wink, wink Nia!), it's a great discussion about not waiting for Max. She went right back to the Motel and more than anything that is hurtful, wanted to celebrate her victory first with Cole.
I don't want to post another long diatribe, I think everyone knows my position on this, but I just can't ultimately get too angry at Maggie for doing what she's doing right now. Regardless of who started who down this path of relationships outside of her own, Max stuck around and fanned the flames. Sort of walked into the "play with fire, get burned" cliche ...
Yeah you make interesting points about Maggie, particularly her inner dialogue and her actions with Cole. I concede her feelings for him may be real...I still think she's more blinded by lust, but her inner dialogue clearly indicates she perceives herself to be falling in love with Cole. And clearly he's her #1 focus right now, not Max.
DeleteThe thoughts on Jay and the beginning are also interesting. Perhaps Maggie would have cheated on Max anyway. Perhaps her "bad side" was just under the surface and looking for a slight push.
And I also want to see Max make more of a Geoff turn in this last chapter. Find your happiness, your inner peace, away from Maggie. Doesn't have to be with another woman (but maybe there's a Krista waiting in the wings for him on campus?). I don't think begging Maggie to take him back will work. Maybe she will, but I doubt it changes the dynamic with Cole.
Max has to let Maggie figure out which guy she feels stronger for now. If its Max, she'll work her way back to him and fight for him (like Nia did). If its Cole, well then it was always going to end in heartbreak for Max...better to find out now than later.
It doesn't tug on the erotic heartstrings as much, but JL, what you describe as Max's best move towards understanding what's best for his future is great! Letting Maggie decide between them is the best move. It's the move both of these men should have taken if they want to be exclusive with Maggie.
DeleteFor me, I'm less convinced Maggie would have plunged into sleeping around. Jay and her ... i dont know, hot guy, naked, intent on getting with her ... Lesser (wo)men have succumbed worse to temptation. And Max prodded it along further. Still, wearing Jay's shirt ... ugh, who knows about Maggie! In the more serious case of Cole and Maggie, three years of playfully flirting with a man as hot as Cole and she did nothing to act on it. Maybe the resistance was razor thin, but damn did the line hold firm for a while! Considering how incredible the two have been, it is amazing the two never had awkward moment where they realized they might mean something to each other. I think that says a lot about Max's role in waking Maggie up. Maybe it would have happened years from now, but it hadnt for a long time!
Thanks, everyone, for commenting with such conviction on this last Maggie book. It was a doozy to write, took me three months, which is not normal for me. All the converging timelines and timezones, motivations, etc. It was a complicated story for sure. The only thing that got me through it was a revelation on the ending and an excitement on working toward it. I hope you all like it, but by the tone of these comments I imagine you will.
DeleteAgain, though, the fact that I have so many people passionate about characters in my erotic novels is, to me, an incredible thing. Thank you all for caring and contributing.
As for the youtube videos: don't look for too much symbolism. I know I try to hide a lot of symbolism in things (and a lot of the time merely brag that I do, ha ha, wink 2B2H), but these videos are more of a wide angle look on the influences. Love Story is major for me. Don't think I didn't toy with the idea of some terminal retribution for Nia's badness, one which she would welcome in some tragic self-flagellation. A lot of is it a love for all things Northeastern and collegiate. And Ray Milland.
The Christopher Mason video is just an idea of how hot I think Cole might be (in two more years after Farmingham). Lala (Lauren Tsai) is a vague idea of how I see Maggie. By the way, I know she's speaking Japanese in the video, I hope you don't think I'm so bigoted to conflate Asians that way—as far as I know, she's part-caucasian, part Chinese, from Singapore, but lives in Tokyo now. Royal Tennenbaums is for my love of Wes Anderson's ability to nail that aforementioned Yankee sensibility. And Rules Of Attraction because it suits me, and it accurately (the book, not the movie) pinpoints the college life I'm looking at for these folks. The college in RoA is fictitious but based on the same college as the fictitious Farmingham. I think the music speaks for itself, though Jackson Frank's Blues Runs the Game is a better song. Now look up Jackson C Frank if you feel like spending the afternoon on the couch crying into a pillow.
Best to you all, you are awesome!
@Tee Gee welcome to The KT group therapy blog. Instead of repeating sentiments I'll just say ..what he said(2b2h)
Delete@2b2h
Maybe a better way to describe Cole is not so much manipulating max and Maggie as positioning himself to take maximum advantage of opportunities with maggie..
If someone is bonding with another they'd be likely to spend as much time with the object of their affections. Did he manipulate maybe ..does he have strong feelings for Maggie I believe so.
@KT
I'll speak for myself here but I bet everyone could jump on board this train...I love your characters you plots subplots. That your stories are error free and easy to read. What ever it is that inspires you I hope you get plenty of it.
I also plan to listen to Jackson c Frank but I REFUSE to cry into my pillow..
I only cry in my beer...🍺😁
KT...as I think I've said before your stories hit me in the gut in a way no one else's in the genre right now do...so thanks for writing them. They don't always make me feel good, but they make me feel.
DeleteAs someone who grew up in the Northeast, and went to a college quite similar to Farmingham...I guess I maybe relate to these people a bit. Definitely more to Max than Cole or even Maggie. I was the middle class kid on financial aid being exposed to a new world, around people who grew up much wealthier than me. But it was a wonderful 4 years I wouldn't change for the world.
This story has me looking back on many of those memories...though I never experienced anything like we're seeing here. But it goes on, oh how it goes on. We may look prim and proper, but we have quite the deviant side at these bastions of liberal arts.
Hi, all… thanks for the welcome. I love that debate can begin here around fictional characters. I didn’t mean to cast too many aspersions on Cole’s feelings for Maggie—in fact, quite the opposite. I think Cole is more deeply in love with Maggie than even he realizes. (Although I do think he has some understanding of how hard he’s fallen.) But my reading is that he’s been manipulating Max and Maggie to open the door for himself—maybe playfully at first, but now more selfishly. Max makes cryptic comments during the Poirot rendezvous that suggest Cole encouraged Max to arrange the circumstances for Maggie to “cheat.” As other commentators noted, the dorm room encounter is not solely Cole’s responsibility—Maggie is obviously culpable, too, for their delicious sexy afternoon—and one would assume the climatic (pardon the pun) motel encounter was all Maggie. (And, at this point, let’s be clear: the passion between Cole and Maggie is extraordinary; their scenes are intensely erotic and—from the cuckold perspective—thrilling and heart-rending.) My issue with Cole is that—despite the honesty of his desire for Maggie—he’s still moving in on his “best friend’s” fiancé. As the story has evolved, Cole’s actions and comments suggest to me that Cole believes he’s more worthy of Maggie than Max is. Why? Because Cole would never have encouraged or even allowed Maggie to explore with other men. (Quite possibly, Cole also believes Maggie never would have had the desire to explore with others if he had been her partner—an argument of sexual superiority that Max would find hard to dispute.) In the final pages, Cole declares his true self when he tells Maggie to let go of the engagement ring; the stakes in that moment are fully obvious to him, and he’s telling Maggie to stay with him and let Max leave.
DeleteThe Max-Maggie-Cole triangle is the classic cuckold conundrum: I can’t bear to be without her, yet I can’t possibly be sexually good enough for her. KT books give life to this conundrum so well that the characters feel real. My angst with the Maggie series is that I can’t see a way back for Max: Maggie is in love with Cole, or at least overwhelmed by the sexual conflagration that Cole has lit within her. Max can’t compete with that, Maggie won’t be satisfied without it, and Cole clearly doesn’t know how to share.
Another fantastic read Tee! I will say this, that I now think that Cole might not think much of Max's sexual relationship with Maggie. I think he thinks he's just being openminded about their relationship and being shared with him is fine, but he knows he's a better lay than Max, and since he doesn't see Max as a threat to Maggie, he doesn't really care that he gets with her sometimes. It was only when his manhood was challenged by someone who is probably a threat in his eyes, Jay, that he gets territorial in the sense that he can't have Maggie spending time with someone other than him (and oh yeah, Max). I do agree that Cole is sort of moving into a territory that says that demands he is Maggie's main squeeze. If he was honest with himself, he'd probably consider Max to be Maggie's fluffer.
DeleteNew thought on Carol - I think it's possible that she is starting to move towards liking Cole territory. I had this thought early in the story, so it's probably coloring my beliefs now, but I believe this for a couple reasons, one is I'm sure he reminds her of Martin. Her mom wants Maggie to do everything that she thinks is right, probably right down to the type of man that is ideal, aspiring Harvard lawyer with roguish charm and blonde locks. All of a sudden the conversation makes sense - "Maggie, do you think it's a good idea to be married when you're at Harvard? I just want to make sure you know what you're doing." Now she is communicating with Cole privately, talking to him about professional interests. She likes Cole. Does she do this with Max? We've been given no indication. I know these run counter to some of Edi's ending scenarios ... :)
A couple things that I wonder if people have caught based on the tenor of some conversations, and I think they're important points as it relates to how outraged we should be that Cole and Maggie hooked up in the dorm room. 1) Max expected Maggie to hook up with Cole. I think that's important because although Max was certainly hurt by it, as the great Bill Maher says about political correctness, we should not be allowed to be more offended than the actual person being hurt, and there seems to be a lot of outrage and screams of betrayal, but even Max knew what was going to happen when he was gone. Maybe the sense is that, "It still doesn't hurt any less." I just think Max is almost in apathetic indifference territory when it comes to the concept of them hooking up, but seeing it hurts just the same.
2) This is kind of related to how betrayed Max feels about Cole and Maggie - he understands why Maggie likes Cole. He knew that Maggie would develop feelings for him, and that certainly hurts, but that's why he is trying to sabotage everything. I guess I'm making a bizarre argument, but if Max thinks Maggie will develop feelings for Cole and knows she's going to have sex with him behind his back, can we really be so outraged FOR Max? I don't know, there's a point I'm trying to make somewhere in there.
Before I sound even more ridiculous than I might in some of your eyes, there's no disputing that Max is no longer in 'apathetic indifference territory' when it comes to Cole and Maggie hooking up, but earlier in the story, he kind of was.
DeleteMaybe what your trying to get at is max expected Cole and Maggie to hook up...so why buck it. His last "be good" was it a desperate plea for Maggie to get a grip. Or just an ambivalent statement as he knew he had no control and was indeed on his way to California to try and reclaim some of that control. If he says anything to Maggie like "stop screwing cole" than doesn't max become the bad guy to Maggie. Confusing and causing her to actually cheat on max like for reals this time. Does Maggie's infatuation with Cole work if max s isn't on board anymore? She seemed pretty upset by his departure. We can attach all the why's and what for's to it we want but she was upset he left in a huff.
DeleteWhens the next book again?
Yeah, kinda. You get what I'm trying to say there. And yeah, how much conviction did he have behind, "be a good girl?" That's a good question. Like Cole said, "what's good mean?" No one knows what the fuck anyone is saying lol.
DeleteAbsolutely, now the lines are drawn and Maggie has to take a look at what's happening around her, what is going to happen now!?!
*Covers eyes if KT answers John's rhetorical question*
FYI - KT, on reading into symbolism in the youtube clips. Does this mean I should scrap my evidence board? I thought it was weird when all the dots were pointing to Dick Dastardly.
TB=TH... I think you're right about a lot of the Cole-Maggie-Max triangle, especially Max's fostering of their relationship. Their developing closeness--both sexual and romantically--fed Max's fantasy and that sustained him for a long time--and even by this book I'm not sure Max had fully drawn a line. He probably expected--and maybe wanted--Maggie and Cole to have sex, but he also didn't understand how deeply their affection now ran. Plus he was on his ill-fated mission to see Maggie's brother, with unrealistic expectations that the video would snap Maggie out of her exploration phase.
DeleteWithout question, this is the most deeply layered "triangle" of any of KT's stories. And when you add the motivations of other people, and what they want to see, like Maggie's parents, or her brother, or her friend...its even more complicated. That's what makes this one fun to me. Its very hard to read what everyone really wants in this one.
DeleteIts entirely possible, like you say, that Maggie's mom may be pushing Maggie toward Cole. But Ken and her friend are pushing her back to Max. What about her father? What does he want...I could see it going either way.
This final chapter is gonna be a doozy. KT says we'll probably like it based on the comments, but of course, that has led me to speculate endlessly in my head as to what that means.
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DeleteIf tiger mom is pushing for Maggie and cole..doesnt that favor max as Maggie is in a rebel mode? Is that tiger moms plan ? Reverse psychology...of course Maggie's not new to her mom's tricks so she could be using reverse reverse psychology . But Carol is no fool and can see right through Maggie's subterfuge. Ahhh I lost count....what were we talking about?
DeleteBottom line for me and I'm making this commitment.
Cole has feelings for Maggie..strong ones. I think he fell in love. one orgasm at a time.
Max still loves Maggie.
Maggie still loves max
What got out of hand was the voyeurism, the domination, and being the "bad girl" for once in her life. This whole thing went south when Maggie misinterpreted max s intentions with the whole cuckold thing I think.max is a just a voyeur. Max didnt communicate with Maggie about it when he had the chances. Confirming to Maggie what she errantly thought max wanted. Which was for Her to spend more time boinking cole..the fact that she's always trying to include him in her sessions with Cole point to it. She did apologize when he grabbed the ring. She maybe realised at that last momment she had made an oopsy in his predicting his desires ..which gives me hope that they can reunite. There are some instances when Maggie does cheat on max with Cole like on the way back from breaking up with jay..she might be thinking she can tell max about it later and he'll get off on it.
Cole on the other hand has discovered in Maggie a kindred spirit exceptionally willing to experiment with her sub side. He can talk her into just about anything..except dumping max.. I think that will be a much harder sell than let me fuck you in the ass. Although it didn't take much effort to get all up in there.
There's too much history between max and Maggie to be dumped over a few weeks of indiscretion.
Max will go to the family meeting mag or Cole will convince him he needs to be there. It'll be a mistake in my pov. He should avoid it like the plague and if confronted by Carol or big daddy .. He ahould lay it straight that he's not gonna be working for or be around either of them...not typical max behavior but its what he should do..hell score brownie points with Maggie is he does.
I'll post this reply here because losing that sliver of space when replying to posts starts to add up, lol I love this blog. To John - I had this thought too about Maggie losing her appetite for Cole through Carol's interest in him. I've been torn with which of the characters has shown more acquiescence to Maggie's overly strict parents. The entire time Max is with Maggie 's family in Sharing Maggie he was doing the, 'just get through this weekend' thing anyone does when they are with demanding parents of a significant other. Cole on the other hand, had the freedom of being the person who got to tag along, obviously felt relaxed enough to jump right into being up for anything despite her parents' apparent power. That said, all Cole has done is say nice things about her mom and dad. Although, I guess humming 'Flight of the Valkyries' when Carol calls clearly demonstrates a recognition that she's a battle axe.
ReplyDeleteAt the time of Sharing Maggie I mentioned how Max (who said as much) had the unfortunate position of having all the pressure on him from her parents, so of course he looks like a stiff that Maggie could easily get annoyed with, and paired with Cole, makes Cole look like a laid-back awesome dude who gets to see the good side of her parents. If Carol starts putting the eggs in the Cole basket, I wonder how he'll do. Put Cole through the ringer that Max had to go through and see how well HE does. How much does Maggie see someone who's going to go with her as far away from her parents (short of traveling to Palo Alto) as possible. If she cares that much that is.
I just had a thought about Maggie and all the baggage that she might be carrying. Does Maggie really want to do the "Harvard Lawyer" thing? Most authors who write a coming of age story would have their character realize they don't want to keep doing just what they're told and do something that makes them happy, but, as long as we're willing to make the claim that just by virtue of going that route in her life (law school), that she'll be falling into a trap of being just like her mother and it's a bad thing (which isn't necessarily true). Then maybe the bad ending is Maggie just falls in line with everything her parents want, right down to the man they want for her. I'm not sure who that might be though. Max is obedient and smart, Cole has charisma and I'm sure Mom sees potential in that. Hmm. I guess an also-bad-ending is actually Cole is perfect for helping sooth the damage done by Mom and Dad, and Maggie sees Max as not being helpful in taking her away from their stress. All he does is pay witness to anything he doesn't like instead of saying something ... takes the easy route and waits until everyone's gone before saying, "they're mean aren't they?" although, what could he honestly say to her parents, really? Anyways ... shit ... Cole kind of does that too ...
I will never get untangled from a KT web, especially ones I may have just made up myself.
John on Maggie's oopsy - I'm of two minds on that one. One thought is yeah I kind of agree that Maggie thinks all that she does with Cole is okay in Max's eyes, again she's only been given riddles masquerading as protest when it comes to what she exploration steps she's taken, and now that he has done the untouchable piece in this entire story, it's rock that holds everything firm, threatening their marriage, what is next for Maggie? That said, i think we all agree the game of exploring her sexuality with Cole is also a pretense, she likes Cole because she likes (probably loves) him, not because he's a means to an end. He might be the end, I guess, and she is clinging onto this game to make herself feel better about it, to not feel too guilty. We all acknowledge she loves Max, but it could be dwarfed by Cole's.
I will say this to the crowd (myself somewhat including depending on my mood, lol) that says Max should have a come back - is it fair that Max could be too late in this? The whole Max should 'have his day in court' with Maggie concept, is it unfair if she doesn't accept her ring back? Damage is done, regardless if Max never really meant to let Maggie run off and do what she's done as a witness or orchestrator, or if Maggie did get the ball rolling by holding Jay's balls, everyone is different now.
DeleteI'm just saying, this story can end all kinds of ways and it will make just as much sense to me.
TB=TH, I've always wondered about the Maggie Lawyer turn, also. It doesn't ring true to who she's been and certainly flies in the face of the "let's explore" mojo. It felt to be a knee-jerk reaction to her feeling set-up by Max to cheat with Cole at the Poirot. Or as a way to be with Cole at Harvard--to keep the triangle alive, so to speak. If nothing else, the dorm room scene in Uncovering showed how Maggie comes alive when she's being an artist. (The sketching scenes with Cole and Jay are astonishingly erotic--although maybe that says more about me than Maggie!).
DeleteI also don't know if I'm on board with the 'Carole likes Cole more than Max" train. Max represents stability; Cole represents anything but. I read Cole's comments about Carol and him communicating as a way of yanking Maggie's chain; that doesn't feel like Carol's style, anyway. Anything she'd want to know about Maggie or want Maggie to hear, she'd tell Maggie herself.
Great discussions!
2b2h i like how you think ..its like watching a pachinko machine..kind of the way I feel when trying to follow the trail of bread crumbs through fields of bread crumbs.
Delete"Oh look this crumb is more darker than the others follow it..but this one is lighter no no follow it"
I blame KT for it all...lol.
Tee - Wow you're right about Maggie's creativity and what it brings out of her. I looked at her move to change her hair, and go the law school route to be a girl turning over a new leaf, but she is really good isn't she? Hard to picture her as a lawyer, but she's a natural at LSAT's apparently, she's just talented!
DeleteAlso, you're right that Carol wouldn't beat around the bush if she didn't like Max, but maybe she's warming up to Cole and so she hasn't settled into fully wanting her to be with him? Maybe this next book could reveal any change of heart?
John - Yep, and you help facilitate these dark thoughts, instigator. KT started it though, agreed.
I should also say, fuck what Carol thinks, but mom's are important people in our lives.
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DeleteAt barely out of teens early twenties she may respect her mom but she's probably not gonna march to her mom's drumbeat. The whole havaad thing may be just a ruse to get her off her back and to play with max s emotions. If she does go to havaad than she may be marching to someone's new beat whether it's her changing her own cadence or someone else's cadence is the question..i had 2 older sister by 18 they soo wanted to be out of the house and out from under mom's thumb that makes me think Maggie has changed her own cadence.
DeleteI pahked my cah in havaad yahd. 😁
DeleteWho do you think most represents "going against mom's wishes?" Cole or Max?
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DeleteIt's a 50/50 toss up.. but I'll go with max i think he just wants to do right by Maggie and if that means going against momma. He may opt for it although he may try and get Maggie to go along with momma. Cole I believe thinks like they do... momma and dada. So he be likely to go along with their ideas.
DeleteIt's easy to see the influence these clips produce in the Maggie series. It's cool that you can specifically pinpoint the things that you are evoking and echoing.
ReplyDeleteAny chance we might hear something about Happy Endings soon?
Ok. I see the influences from the clips above. Maybe I understand Maggie a bit more.
ReplyDeleteI honestly just think she doesn’t even realize what’s happening.
I’m still convinced that Cole’s motives are not inspired by love of any kind. He’s acted out of envy, desire and lust mostly.
Max I’ve said enough about.
The biggest problem here is that our actors are just so young.
Maggie - You think she has no idea? I think she's learned quite a bit. It's clear she has been convincing herself of a lot, but she has had more than a few pivotal turns for her character. She stood up to Jay by talking to his father, she knows about Max in the closet, knows there's a rift growing between them, and learned where the limits are when Max took her ring. In the moments before Max taking her ring though, it was interesting to see the contrast between their reactions to each other. Maggie, surprised but almost non-chalant in her passionate actions with Cole, didn't even stop her bounce showing no noticeable guilt, while Max, was pretty damn mad. It does lend itself to thinking that Maggie still doesn't know she's hurting Max, not that he has given her much indication until the ring, as I've said before.
DeleteAnd I know I've leaned mostly the opposite with Cole than what you said, I concede that there is a possibility that you're completely right about his motives. I just haven't seen anything from his character that would prove to me he doesn't have a deep love of Maggie. I have a question based on an example of what I mean, how do you interpret Cole saying that he can't wait to see what Maggie accomplishes? That is not the musings of a person who sees only burning amber eyes and a slender frame, but a man who sees (or believes he wants to see, I'll concede) a woman's value and depth.
Im curious what makes some so sure he doesn't love Maggie.
I don't doubt that he loves Maggie, but is the love he feels the love someone feels for his partner or the love someone feels for his family? Not really enough to go off of to make the call, other than the facts that he likes fucking her and he wants her to succeed in life.
DeleteI'd say the easiest indicator for true affection is when you make sacrifices for someone. Cole hasn't done...anything, really, to this end. Think about it. He might love Maggie, maybe it's real love maybe it's the love for a sister, I can't say, but he hasn't actually sacrificed anything to make this relationship happen. Being around these people is already his life, he doesn't even have to change his day to day. It just fell onto his lap. He hasn't given anything up to make this work.
It's not damning or anything but I didn't read these books and think, "Damn, that man sure loves Maggie." It's more like he's an opportunist and who can blame him? Meanwhile Max is terrified, shitting his pants while he willingly allows her to explore this new side to her. That's unequivocally love.
@WA
DeleteYou make a good point about the sacrificing. But in love it's kind of relative right? Maggie sacrifices her virtue for Max S kink.
Max sacrifices time with his girl so she can experience different sex partners. Even tho that plays to his kink until Cole. Then the sacrifice becomes much more acute.
Cole sacrifice is having to share Maggie with Max. A situation he seems more than willing to eliminate. Also he's giving up all his other girls remember him saying he's gonna be exclusive with Maggie. Again relative sacrifice it's probably doesn't mean much to max if Cole is exclusive (does he even know) does Maggie really care if he's exclusive with her. But for Cole giving up on all that sex just for Maggie is probably a major step for him. Its important to try and flesh out how the partners feel about the others "sacrifice" whether it's like "omg Cole your gonna donate your kidney for me." Or is she like "yea right exclusive my ass". But Life altering to Cole giving up on being a hound dog probably feels like a major step.
We been spending a lot of time with Cole and max but have we really discerned where Maggie's true feelings lie..does she even know how she feels.
Hard to say whats what but well find out in the next book.
Sacrifices -
DeleteThis is an interesting argument, so WA, you're saying Cole hasn't really proven himself to be Maggie's lover since he has had the least amount of resistance. I think that's different than arguing whether Cole loves Maggie which you do concede above as well, sisterly love or otherwise, but it can certainly demonstrate his worthiness to have earned it. That matters a lot too, from an outsider perspective. It might not be fair to argue that point though, only because of course the stakes are higher for Max and Maggie, so Max has to accept the responsibility put upon him with everything that being with Maggie entails, like her parents (as I've said before), and has to suffer through the pain of combating his internal and socially prescribed values seeing his Maggie falling in love with another man. Cole gets to come into this without these responsibilities and without a preconception of relationship with Maggie from the start of the story. Cole didn't stand to lose anything except maybe his friendships, we'll see how that goes next book.
As far as what Cole has sacrificed in this, I have thought about it in a roundabout way - John made the points I was thinking of, the fact that he is kind of playing a role, waiting to get tagged in (with subtle, sometimes less subtle, suggestions to do so throughout) to Maggie's love life, is some kind of sacrifice. He hasn't been aggressively trying to take Maggie away from Max with Max's knowledge, which you could argue is not a sacrifice in that he is not accepting all the responsibility for trying to win Maggie over. He is doing what he can to be helpful to his friends despite what has to be something eating at him inside - he's driven Max and Maggie all over New England, been Max's workout buddy, sat Max down to talk about the video he knew might draw ire, helping Maggie get into Harvard, and helped break Maggie up with Jay. Throughout this, he hasn't changed his responsibility to be there for Max and Maggie even though everyone is changing. That's a sacrifice of some kind too.
His 'sacrificing' his reputation is sort of a silly argument as John and I both agree, but it is a change in behavior for someone, that's absolutely is a sacrifice right? That said, two weeks is not that hard for someone to remain exclusive to someone ... so there's one more book ... :) And John, I think Maggie absolutely wants Cole to be exclusive to her, she's said or alluded to it in two separate occasions.
For Max - repeating what I said above, you're absolutely right that he has had the most skin in this game among the men in the story, no question. That might be all that needs to be said for you, but I will say that he is also not taken on all of the sacrifices he should be. He failed to come clean about being in Jessie's closet even though he felt bad about it, couldn't get out of the armoire even though Maggie was hurting badly, put on a facade of someone who's totally into what's going on while he plans his revenge, and has allowed a thinly veiled persona of being a victim in this, even though everyone knows he's a co-conspirator, by not letting on that he hurts too much when she's with other men.
Also, let's not forget, Max's sacrifice of seeing Maggie with other men comes with a portion of him that likes it, so how much of a sacrifice is that really?
All I'm doing in the above is muddy the waters. Apparently, I can't allow anyone to continue until they acknowledge how muddy they are before proceeding, lol.
I see your points 2B. I really do. And I agree the waters are plenty muddied.
DeleteWith regards to Cole I just do not buy it. Oh I think he THINKS he loves Maggie, but he hasn’t sacrificed anything. He’s wanted what he couldn’t have from the beginning. And now that he can have it he wants it for himself. His own words. Some of his acts might seem altruistic, and I think he really does care about Maggie’s future and is concerned about Max’s decisions. However, he’s gone out of his way to NOT talk them down or point out what he sees as wrong (except to manipulate Maggie), but has encouraged even more extreme breaks between Max and Maggie and positioned himself to be the one Maggie falls to.
Like WA says below tho the biggest problem we as readers have is that we don’t get to see inside Cole’s head.
I'm not going to get into the actions of the characters; I know Max is a moron. Just going to be talking about sacrifice and love.
ReplyDeleteIf you think Max's dick getting hard is a fair exchange for witnessing his wife-to-be being seduced and taken from him then I've got a building I'd like to sell you. KT Morrison is brutally detailed in how she describes how tortured Max is. He's making a heavy sacrifice, no question.
I'll concede that Cole has made a change in his behavior but I don't believe it to be a sacrifice. He wants to be exclusive with Maggie, that's the change. Everything else you mentioned he was already doing, already willing to do, and already committed to keep doing. Now that he's had a taste of that sweet, tight pussy, though, he changes his behavior in that he doesn't sleep around. It's preservative. He found something better and doesn't want to downgrade. No sacrifice in this. It's like the opposite of a sacrifice.
The strongest evidence, for me, that Cole really loves Maggie is that he's willing to sever his friendship with Max in order to pursue her (an action you might not think he's taking, but I do). But we don't know what Cole's thinking. It could just be lust; he could just really, really like fucking her. He is described as a sex fiend after all.
An important side-note: This story is only told through Max and Maggie's perspectives. We disagree on many things, primarily how I believe Cole is trying to steal Maggie and you don't. I believe this is in part because of how Maggie interprets Cole's actions as affection and Max interprets them as deception. Naturally this creates a rift between the readers.
So we're missing Cole's perspective and we have to use two heavily flawed character's perspectives in order to determine something as difficult to describe as love. So I stick to my original opinion: I have no idea if Cole really loves Maggie but from what I've read, I don't see any redeeming qualities of love from Cole. Everything he's done can be spun into an act of selfishness and that makes it harder to believe that he loves her.
Sorry if that came off rude or rushed. I accidentally hit back on my mouse or something what I was typing the first draft of that and I'm piiiiiiiiiiiiiissed.
DeleteNo worries we respect all opinions we lay out our cases for or against... some stick some dont..
DeletePurely speculative now.
The problem I have with the ending of that last book is we have no idea what will happen next with Maggie. She didn't really fight to hard to keep the ring but she was pretty upset...once again balanced on a knife edge .
The next book will open with Maggie chasing after max either to get him back OR to apologize for the shit storm she dropped on him. And that she's sooooo soooorrry. But she gonna take what's behind door number 2..
Or we do a fast forward to wedding day with max and Cole standing side by side at alter us readers not knowing who the real groom is until one takes Maggie's hand and steps up to do the I do.
If KT wants to jerk us around than the story ends with big daddy walking Maggie up the aisle and all us readers collectively shouting...NOOOO!
I know KT would never do that to us (I think).
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DeleteAS far as Coles intentions.
DeleteHe's Maggie's bodyguard now he's in full on protect Maggie mode argue the why's all you like but he has gone into this thing not knowing about jay and the kinks. But when he finds out he's upset with max he doesn't confront max though he berates max in front of Maggie gets Maggie to break off with jay. Helps Maggie plot out her future. Trys to keep max at bay.. is always around when max isn't convinced Maggie to cheat and get it out of her system...before the wedding .."If you want to get out from under someone's control have sex with someone else" which may cone back and haunt Cole if Maggie grabs some strange off the street. So yea we don't really know his feelings towards Maggie is it love or lust just playing around or is there a serious play in the works.. I think he does have a genuine feeling for her it's hard to seperate great sex and emotional bonding as they happen simultaneously.
Hope the next book comes soon....
Ok WA, a couple things. One is that I didn't mean to say that their sacrifices were the same, I thought I said that in my initial response but in my effort to obfuscate, I think you interpret me as equivocating, which is (obviously) not right. Another is I should have just left it at, it doesn't matter who sacrificed more, to me. I decided to think about their sacrifices after that because that was sort of the theme of the last two posts by you and John, but it's ultimately moot to me. Just because Cole doesn't have it as difficult as Max, doesn't mean as much to me as it does to you. Max is maybe more respectable than Cole because of what both of them are going through, but I guess I don't weigh what Max is going through as more important than what I think of the two, and what Maggie thinks of them. If she doesn't go with the guy who has been struggling more, I'm not upset about it. I don't know who i like more, even though I identify with Max more than Cole.
DeleteCole's character (as in personality) is where we disagree, not whether or not he is trying to steal Maggie. How dumb you must think I am to think I ignored the fact that he said that out loud to Maggie. Did I say that somewhere and not say what I meant correctly or something? I know at one point I thought he didn't realize he wanted to steal Maggie away, but at this point everyone knows what's going on from this last book.
I guess my point with Cole is I feel like his behavior, conversation, and treatment of both Maggie and Max would be different if all he cared about was sex with Maggie. I've said multiple times I don't care for Cole's viewpoint, I'm just going purely off of what Cole has done and said, and yeah what bad I've come away with is that he is lustful right now, and how he talks sounds like a person with self-interest, but I don't blame him for that. You and others obviously think he shouldn't have a say in Maggie and Max. To you guys, it doesn't matter that Cole cares about Maggie like he does, it doesn't matter. Forget how he got involved with Maggie, his opinion doesn't matter with respect to how he and Maggie should be. I agreed until all of their relationships have changed. Everyone is reevaluating, and at this point, someone (or all) is going to get hurt, and to me, it's all fair game. Obviously we're going to see how much he actually cares, but it's a guess at this point.
I remember our conversations before the latest book where you and John weren't convinced that Cole wanted Maggie for himself (because it was unclear up until the latest book) and I guess I missed some stuff after that. My apologies. I don't think you're stupid. And I also don't care who's sacrifice is greater, I just thought it was an interesting point to present the differences between Cole and Max's obvious love for Maggie and how Max's is clear and Cole's is not, at least not yet. Max is as responsible for what's happening as much as anyone else, I'm not disillusioned into thinking that he doesn't deserve the possibility of failure for his mistakes. And I also don't blame Cole for his role in this story. He's a simpler character with motives that are more straightforward.
DeleteBut just like Max, who's lack of action has contributed significantly to the story, choices that any sensible person would find reprehensible, Cole has also made choices that are reprehensible. Even more so, in my opinion. In my opinion, his efforts to steal Maggie from his best friend, someone who named him the Best Man at his wedding, are heinous. And, to me, this fact overshadows every redeemable quality to his character and makes me question everything he's done and said so far.
This is where we disagree, Cole's personality like you said.
Again, the sacrifice thing wasn't mean to be interpreted as some kind of love measuring contest. It doesn't matter to me either -- it was more of a way to display how Max clearly loves Maggie and Cole's love is unclear. If he does and he wins her in the end, then I can accept that if Maggie can. I'll still find his character exceedingly evil and will worry for Maggie's future, but I can accept it.
I realize I clearly oversimplified why you were bringing up how much either of the men have given up to Maggie. I did think you were making the connection between that and amount of love, but that was clearly fake news.
DeleteI appreciate the apology, I give too much of a shit about this author so I get defensive when it comes to reading comprehension.
I like your perspective here, your opinion of the story is now a lot clearer to me. I see why it doesn't matter what Cole has said or done that might seem like a good person. He isn't and it affects everything he does. And though I might think he isn't so bad as to be evil, I don't see him as good either. It could be how we define evil, but I think he just ... is ... not good, not evil.
Everyone is kind of that way in my eyes. Except maybe Satinder.
It's hard to have meaningful conversations like this without oversimplifying things. I hear you on that. Even my opinion of Cole is a lot more complicated than just to say he's evil and I don't trust anything he says. I'm certain there are truths sprinkled into the things he's said but it's too hard for me to really give him credit when everything he's done can be enveloped into this cloud of deception that I see him as.
DeleteThe real tragedy to me is the demise of the friendship between Max and Cole. Maggie's future is less important to me because either way, I know both of her guys care about her. It's the free spirited friendship between Max and Cole that's become spoiled rotten by desire, lust, and greed. Cole's actions against Max are so much more offensive to me than any sneaking around that Maggie does behind Max's back. Bros before hoes, man. I live by that mantra. I could never trust a person like that ever again.
An interesting point in the brotherhood. What if max and cole sit down and have a heart to heart (Finally). And they agree maggies not good for either of them or say max admits Coles better for her than he. Perhaps Cole realizes he crossed boundaries he shouldnt have and his own lack of self restraint caused this big pile of pooh. So he agrees to step aside. I like Cole tricking Maggie away from max but that's just my character bias..its what makes Cole such a good bad guy for me ..even though he may not be a bad guy as in evil.
ReplyDeleteI share the same character bias, John!
DeleteAn interesting point in the brotherhood. What if max and cole sit down and have a heart to heart (Finally). And they agree maggies not good for either of them or say max admits Coles better for her than he. Perhaps Cole realizes he crossed boundaries he shouldnt have and his own lack of self restraint caused this big pile of pooh. So he agrees to step aside. I like Cole tricking Maggie away from max but that's just my character bias..its what makes Cole such a good bad guy for me ..even though he may not be a bad guy as in evil.
ReplyDeleteCole's perception of Max
ReplyDeleteQuestion first - Does it matter (in terms of seeing Cole's personality) that it seems as if Cole might have fallen into the mode of trying to steal Maggie, that it was not his intention from the beginning of the story (as in before Sharing Maggie), or do you think he was always trying to steal Maggie when he got involved in her sex life?
I want to try to look at this from Cole's perspective since his character really is the black box of the story. I'll say it again, I like that we don't know his perspective, I prefer not to. I've also said (god what haven't I said ad nauseum on this board ...) that mystery is the primary reason I love KT's stories. It enhances all of the other amazing qualities of her stories. Not knowing the truth of her characters' motives, the direction of the story, the lies and what they help conceal, etc. it makes everything better.
The first kind of important interaction we have between the three of Max, Maggie, and Cole is after Maggie's assistance of Jay and self-help (I fucking love euphemisms), where friendly flirting got called out and Cole had to stop and think about the possibility of Maggie and him together by accidentally being accused of it. Some friendly flirting persisted at the pawn shop, then came the beach. Max sat by while Maggie made her move, and Cole freaked out. He storms off and has to be convinced by Max to return. I think this is an important moment, because now Cole is all in, and he has his friend's approval. To me this is the biggest moment where Max had much control over the situation, and he relinquished it (well intentioned though he may be, this was a mistake).
Later on that night Max gets cold feet, which as we all know is fair, but he's the only one with that opinion. It's a little frustrating I'm sure for Cole and Maggie, but Cole follows along with the plan of waiting until the next day. Next day Maggie and Cole are egging each other knowing what's going to happen and Max acts indifferent about it, Cole even says to him he needs to stop because he's ruining what is obviously something Maggie wants.
I'm going to stop there and say that's an important difference between Max and Cole, Cole has seen Maggie completely ravenous, and I think it's fair to say that Cole has a better understanding of what Maggie likes than what Max does, and he has for some time. That matters because when it comes to these little spats that Max and Cole have, Cole seems to have better points as they relate to Maggie's mindset. I'm kind of building my case here that Cole becoming a little possessive, and turning on Max has some gradual underpinnings that make sense to me. Even if they may be unfair.
Cole keeps on the pressure, knowing what he's doing to Maggie, and then that night starts. Cole is in "whatever happens, happens" mode and Max continues his understandable ambivalence. Cole starts to reveal his deep desires with Maggie, and interestingly, so do Maggie kind of? Cole saying he's wanted her for a long time is not necessarily groundbreaking, but Maggie said the same thing. I'm interested to see what happens there. Anyways, Cole questions why Max is just standing there (I think he forgot he was in the room at one point before Maggie saying anything), and eventually Maggie, totally loving this moment wants to go down to the Music Room. Again an impasse with Cole and Max. Cole is all in, and Max exercises prudence, because obviously. Hello, his future in-laws are right down the hall and they should never see his cock and balls.
DeleteThey all have their fun, and drive back to school the next day.
Max and Cole work out and Cole checks in, "is everything okay?" Max says yes. Dude, no it's not, maybe he thinks it is at that time, but he doesn't even know what's happening in this moment. Talk it out maybe? No, too much pride. He leaves the two flirtatious friends for his duties and we know what happens in Maggie's dorm. Strip Kombat and threesome training happen, with the idea that Cole is on to something with what Maggie likes, and he goes for it.
Max knows what happened, and let's it persist. Fast forward to Cole sitting down and having a heart-to-heart with Max, the "sorry bro" and "I thought it's what you wanted" happened and again Max accepted it. Then came the plan for the Poirot. Max agreed to the plan! Even booked the room for them!
What happened at the Poirot is everyone's fault, but when Maggie knew the truth, it was only Cole who had suffer the first line of Maggie's emotional distress. Cole, who was a little disappointed to find out he was one of two additional men in Maggie's life, was Maggie's main support in a troubling moment in her life where she felt cheated by people she trusted. Maggie is not without fault, but we're not talking about her right now.
Max, Maggie, and Cole have a passionate threesome again, and after Cole and Maggie finish up, Max doesn't do his usual love dive, because he's afraid of what Cole will think. Another moment of hesitation. Again, back home Cole sets out to help Maggie end things with Jay, which in his eyes, is something that Max should have helped Maggie do. He puts himself in harms way to end things between Maggie and Jay and tells Maggie that he's exclusive to her in this adventure she's on.
Cole has to be getting tired of Max's lack of knowing what is the right thing to do, whether it's right or wrong, in his eye's Max is way behind the eight-ball with Maggie, and it is really starting to accumulate. Though I don't think he wants to admit it, Jay kind of elbowed Cole into really doubling down on Maggie.
I think Discovering Maggie, Cole is fully trying to get Maggie to be with him, so there isn't much to speculate there, but in terms of now leaning towards disliking Max, I think Max's lack of wanting to beat down Jay and calling Cole a gold digger, essentially, really put it over the top.
Cole is human being, and where I think there's a lot more depth to his character than may be believed. As JL has been saying, there is more to him as a bull in terms of being a tangible character than any other that KT has written, and I think it makes this story within the 'cuckold/hotwife/cheating spouse' sphere much more enjoyable as a result.
I agree. Cole is not just a faceless cock with legs, he's got a lot of depth. It's also adds a ton of tension and mystery to the story that we aren't seeing his side of things beyond his dialogue and I also think this makes for a better, more interesting story. When I said Cole was simpler, I meant sexually he's more traditional. The fact that he's an old friend for both of them that cares about them and wants the best for them makes this story very special. He's not just a bull that gradually becomes a threat, he's a bull that is immediately a threat.
DeleteYour sequence of events seems spot on. I'll concede that it's possible he didn't want to steal Maggie from the beginning but if I had to nail down a moment when he most likely wanted to, it would be the moment he learned about Jay. I also suspect it was as early as the night of the beach when he seemed extra eager to go at her again after he put on that show of disgust and threatened to leave. His turn of opinion on the whole situation just seemed to change a little TOO quickly, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Either way, I understand Cole's actions given his more traditional view of sex and companionship. I can see and relate to why he would be offended at the idea of Jay being involved. I think your sequence of events certainly contributed to Cole's opinion of Max diminishing gradually over time.
My opinion of Cole is a poor one because of the actions we know he took. A real friend wouldn't look at Max's actions and be disgusted to the point of giving up. Because that's ultimately what he's decided to do -- give up on Max and steal Maggie for himself because he believes he's better for her and because his views of sex are superior. And instead of taking the high road (which could be as simple as telling Max what he thinks but still ultimately trying to take Maggie for himself), he took the sleazy, lazy route that hurts Max the most. Also Maggie, by the way.
But maybe, just maybe, Cole is redeemable and has a lot more in common with Max than we think he does. I doubt it, but maybe he's also trapped in his own head and can't say what he needs to say to Max. I can forgive someone who is genuinely remorseful and makes mistakes. The difference between Max and Cole is I don't question that Max is remorseful for his mistakes. And if he doesn't see them as mistakes, then he was never a real friend to Max.
Which is fine, btw. If he sees Max as his nemesis now then may the best man win (pun NOT intended). Long term I think Cole's strategy sucks though. Showing Maggie how fun cheating is seems like a terrible idea given his traditional view of sex and her eagerness for pleasure. Seems like that might come back to bite him, don't you think? I wonder who will realize this first.
DeleteIt's an important point about the longevity of Maggie and Cole, it seems like it might fizzle and die, and it's also a good point about Cole's line about, "you think someone has control over you, fuck someone else." Not the principles of a long standing monogamous relationship, ha! I could see that being a tongue in cheek comment and he actually is turning over a new leaf, but who knows.
DeleteI appreciate you walking through that, you added some perspective that I needed.
Your take on Cole as Max's friend is a good one, and yeah it's hard to imagine a comeback for these two. I think Cole thought he understood Max, but it was barely if so, and certainly didn't last long.
I realize I've been thinking about how much progress has happened, but it's only been three weeks! So yeah, it's safe to say he never really understood Max considering how long it took for Cole to turn on him.
Max didn't understand himself either until presented with the idea on a silver platter. Sometimes you learn things about yourself that other people aren't comfortable with and those people gradually move away from you over time. Most of the time this is the sensible thing to do, no confrontation, no abrupt actions that can harm the other, just slowly but surely pull away until you're harmlessly separated.
DeleteSomething like this is happening but Maggie is making that process a bitch for both of them. Just another side effect of them being young. An abrupt confrontation is necessary and the ending of Discovering Maggie isn't what I'm talking about. It's going to be great too, because we'll see just how deep Max is willing to go to hold onto Maggie and Cole will undoubtedly show his true colors and intentions. I think he's too naive and passionate not to.
This could be happening between Max and Maggie, too. Maggie seems regretful but is it because she loves Max or just the idea of being married to someone like Max? Hard to say.
Delete@2b2h
ReplyDeleteJust caught up on the extra reading. ..did KT help you write that summation...it looked real good to me. To be specific tho she didn't swallow on the beach she spit in the fire.
I still think cole has grown to her and has what he believes is a true affection for her. Won't be surprised to find out he's just fuckin with everyone or he and Maggie planned it. Just think he's in for the long haul. Maybe not marriage but definetly in for the relationship. Just my gut talking and it has bad breath.
Maggie is more the mystery to me because I don't know how serious to take her ..if she loves max Than it's changed or morphed into something perverted. I believe she believes she loves him just isn't coming out the way max needs it too. I have a hard time with Maggie not understanding where this had all been heading somewhere along the line maybe at Poitrot the lights went out and she went on autopilot. She still seemed to have max locked up. And she has Cole too..
Cole can do whatever but Maggie still has to agree to it all. So is she under an misunderstanding in what max wants (I think so) or is she the easily seduces vallery girl bimbo daughter of tough parents who is just doing "like what ever" . This story was one very cleverly woven web of omissions, deceits, lies, and confused star struck lovers.
John, your compliment is appreciated. I might come across as a shill for KT, I can assure you I'm just a super fan like you.
DeleteI don't think Maggie and Cole are playing at anything as a game for Max. The dialogue and thoughts don't add up to that. I did have a fleeting thought that Maggie was saying, "I won" because she was playing a game with Cole at the moment. Like "who can come first?" or "Let's see if we can make Max mad." But no, Cole seems genuinely upset by Max's presence and Maggie playing a cruel game of treating Max poorly would just not be like her. As bad as some think of her.
Maggie is the biggest mystery, you're absolutely right. I just think I have a comfortable grasp on what her conflict is. I guess I could say the same for Cole.
I think Maggie has enjoyed the feeling of being in control of a room with her sexuality, but she still sympathesizes with feeling inferior or hesitant. At first I thought your first thought on Maggie, that she is just misunderstanding max, had to be right. Then again she really did enjoy the feeling of sounding so free spirited when she spoke to Jessie. I just think that she cares too much to be a cold hearted spoiled snob. She's a sweetheart torn between the two most important men in her life. Ok, maybe a sweetheart with a touch of privelege, ha!
I don’t know, 2B. I just have trouble seeing her as a Sweetheart when she’s willfully done everything the man she claims to love has asked her not to do because it would hurt him. Not that I disagree wholly with you. I still think it’s more naievete than anything else.
DeleteBut Cole... I can’t disagree with your synopsis. But there have been some subtle things Cole has done that just smack as coniving. Too coniving to convince me that he cares about anyone more than himself.
I know, Edi. I'm in the other faction that still more likes than dislikes, Maggie :) . I see her hurting max as part of her naivety. I think what she is doing is bad. She's guilty, but for like, involuntary manslaughter, not murder. It still remains about intentions to me.
DeleteAnd I think there's plenty to see Cole's actions as purely selfish, so you're probably right.
@2b=2h I know we've butt heads a few times on here but I am also a shill for KT =). It's amazing that these short stories can create such contrasting opinions about a handful of characters in what amounts to only a handful of scenes.
DeleteRegarding Maggie, I also like her more than I dislike her. In my downtime from this comment section, I've read the first book of Losing His Wife and I think it would be wrong to assume that KT's influences for both Maggie and Jess weren't cut from the same cloth. I think Maggie loves tormenting Max just like Jess loves tormenting Pete but I don't think that necessary makes her a bad person or that her end game is to be with a different person. I also think Maggie is a bit clueless (unlike Jess) and I can forgive that as well. The question is whether or not she can recognize the damage she's caused and be genuinely remorseful for it -- similar to my opinion of Cole. Regardless of her youthful ignorance or their 'game,' she's guilty of betraying Max's trust and needs to correct it.
I think we all like Maggie more than we dislike her. It’s certainly a fair statement in my estimation. I’d say the same for Cole but I’d be lying... he just reminds me too much of certain... people... for me to make that allowance.. for now.
DeleteThough I am starting to wonder if maybe, just maybe, Cole is doing what he’s doing to teach Max and Maggie a lesson... or maybe not. That it all just keeps me guessing is more than just a simple testament to KT’s writing.
Even though I'm sure Maggie loves max and vice versa, and there maybe new relationship emotions going on between mags and Cole. I m still not sure about mags intentions. On the one hand she's trying to keep max in as a participant in all she does on the other she absouletly hit every fear he told her of. Knowingly. With Coles help of course. Although I don't think max ever told Cole his fears nor did Maggie relay them. So mags has sole ownership of that damage.
DeleteOn mag and Cole being in cahoots to play max whether by plan or by fate it's what's been going on. I think we blame a lot on Cole for the plotting and scheming. But mags is an active (as in eyes and legs wide open) participant in the ultimate destruction of max.
But again I don't understand her right now she's a perplexing person. Loves one maybe both boys and expected what to happen?
Says several times she's making her own decisions and choices...if she is than is choosing Cole or not? She's enjoying all the extra sex knowing it will come to an end after the wedding (Yea right). So I don't get what her game is and what was the whole thing with the fantasy boy named Cole on the beach..was that just a fairy tale to seduce Cole or did she have those for real and decide to act on them? To many unanswered questions about Maggie for me to nail her this way or that. I guess i have doubts as to how gullible we think she is. She seems to be lead each step of the way. But on another level she was already at the thresholds of those anyway. If I say "come in" to some one who is already entering a room did they enter on their own or with my encouragement.
More like with my approval. I think that's what's been happening with mags each step has been met not with an encouragement to do but with an approval of her doing it. I just don't know how she could.be so blind to Max s pain.
Jeeez the semantics
Yeah. That about sums it up for me.
DeleteOn Maggie winning: I actually wrote out the entire scene and conversation with Maggie and Professor Carmichael. When I read it, it came across as just a different type of book. Took the emphasis off the love triangle/human relationships and felt kind of smarmy. Then I went crazy because I realized the perfect way for that segment of the story to be revealed—and it fits with the love triangle perfectly. I was pretty happy. (Cryptic, huh?) Poop, though, because if I have to tell you that Maggie's winning has to do with Carmichael then I dropped the ball.
DeleteIt'll make a good blooper reel for when the story is over—along with the scenes where Cole tried to convince Maggie to make a pornhub channel with him so they could show Max the things they did. That flopped.
Lovely, thanks for the added intrigue, KT! Reading between the lines on the original plan, further confirms (like you alluded to before) that John was right, ha! So glad you didnt go there (sorry, john).
DeleteI'm not saying this what KT alluded to above, but i just think it would have taken away from the story significantly.
And the alternative way of showing Max what Cole and Maggie are up to ...Hahaha ... Imagine Ken comes home from working on his projects and wants to blow off some steam only to accidentally see his sister having sex, again!
These Becker's are learning alot away from home ...
Poor Ken!
DeleteHow.many more words before we need a part 3...lol
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ReplyDeleteSo I was going to wait to put this out there but I feel like I need to do it now for some reason. Not that I think everyone needs to get where I’m coming from but more for my own ease of ... mind? Heart? Burden? Whatever.
ReplyDeleteSo many of you may have surmised that the strength of my feelings for this series and LHW2 stem from personal hurts. That is true. But it’s deeper than that. I believe I may have mentioned, or not, that Nia reminded me of my former fiancée. But so does Maggie. Honestly she had the fire and passion of Nia with the naiveté and innocence of Maggie. See this was years ago. She was my high school sweetheart. She was there for me at a time when my mom was dying of breast cancer and stuck with me after mom died. I trusted her. I was devoted to her. Out of high school we went to different colleges on opposite sides of the country.
In retrospect we, much like Max and Maggie were far too young to get engaged. But we did. Just before she left for the east coast. Now I inherited some money, enough that we were able to see each other every couple of weeks. This worked fine for a few months. But since the missed visits on her part (her coming to me) coincided with major tests I thought nothing of it. Even less so since we spent the entirety of winter break together.
I made special plans however to surprise her for Valentine’s Day. Made the trip out without telling her I was going. I got to her dorm room, it wasn’t closed or locked, so I knocked and went in only to find her being fucked by some jock and telling him he was so much better than I. Needless to say I dropped all my gifts and walked out.
She caught up to me on the steps, tried apologizing. I found out she’d skipped those visits to me because he’d asked her to. When I asked her if she’d give him up for me, even though I knew the answer already, and she said no I just held out my hand until she gave me back the ring. Oh she begged and cried. I wish I could have put into words them what I wanted to say... how could she say I was breaking her heart after what she’d done and I’d just heard? How could she not expect me to end things then and there? Yes I still loved her, but she flat out told me she’d not choose me over him.
Thing is, while I didn’t speak to her again until years later, I was friends with her younger sister (still am, she’s the one that got me to read LHW2 after also spotting the similarities to Nia). Younger sis even married one of my best friends. So I wasn’t alone in my feelings. It didn’t stop me from trying to kill myself though. That was a really difficult time. Fortunately my almost father in law came to see me and caught me before I succeeded. Of course he beat the shit out of me for being stupid.
I said I spoke to my ex years later. She called me from a number I didn’t recognize. I almost hung up on her. She had married the jock. But he had changed. He beat her... and her kid. This was about 7 years later. The kid was 7, born in mid september... did the math? She was begging for my help.
DeleteMy best friend and I drove to her place to get her and the kid out. We found the door ajar. Inside we found her beaten bloody, upstairs the kid smothered, and the jock had killed himself. She apologized one more time before she died. I didn’t know why until I did the math and younger sis confirmed things.
The kid was mine. I never knew. It is my single greatest regret. What if I’d taken her calls before then? Why couldn’t I save them?
In retrospect, as I said, we were too young. But I don’t know that I’d have done anything different. The fact that I was engaged again 10 years later to another one that cheated on me (for money no less) seems to indicate that I sure can pick em.
I have her journals, courtesy of younger sis. I know what happened and why. I also knew she regretted what she said to me that night. And not just because she was getting beaten.
I’ll never know what my child would have been like. I’ve heard stories of how my daughter was. But I missed knowing her for myself.
Thing is none of it had to happen. All she, and the second one for that matter, had to do was be honest with me. That’s what tears me up with these stories that KT writes and why they resonate so with me. Guess I’m just a glutton for punishment or something.
Anyway. Believe it or not that’s my story. Younger sis confirmed it for KT when I told her but I don’t think it likely she’ll share here. I’m not sharing for sympathy or anything, just maybe to shed some insight on my thoughts here.
Thank you for sharing that story, Edwin. If the younger sis didn't tell you earlier then I'd guess your ex-fiance didn't want you to know. I'm so sorry, I can't imagine what that feels like. I don't know why people are so easily capable of dishonesty.
DeleteTraumatizing to the extreme. However the being cheated on is an experience we share I declare myself seriously stupid for the first marriage. My second I learned from the first we had a child and I gave her every chance to leave the asshole. She kept seeing him behind my back so I gave the ultimatum him or me oh and by the way I keep the daughter beause she was incompetent as a mom. So she packed up and left ...im glad I didn't have to go thru what you did that was some harsh shit buddy.
DeleteBut the reason i dive into these stories is because It feels theraputic to me. Even after all these years. thanks for sharing your story. Wish the best.
Thanks guys.
Delete@John, agreed on the therapeutic aspect here. As gut wrenching, heart string tearing, and flashback inducing as they are, KTs writing forces me to not just see the characters but also myself. We live and learn. KT seems to have a great grasp of the psychology of her subjects. Sure it’s in the extreme, but still.
That's an awful story, Edi! Has to be terrible to have trust in someone just to have it shattered. Really a sad ending all around, God dammit. I hope you're doing well now. You and her sister are good friends then? That's good that you're able to talk things out with someone who knows exactly who you're talking about.
DeleteOn a completely unimportant but decidedly lighter topic, i don't see Cole as the monster from your past, Cole cares too much about about Max and Maggie.
I've spun my wheels uttering that point too much as it is though.
agreed @2b=2h. Cole might not be a great person but he isn't that kind of monster.
DeleteOh I don’t think Cole is as bad as he from my own past. Aside from stealing another guy’s girl. He’s worse in som respects since the other guy is supposed to be his best friend. That being said, again, I don’t know his true motivation. It could be worse than we all think, or better, or someone here could be spot on. We will just have to see.
DeleteAs for me. One day at a time. I have my issues, trust and adequacy mostly, but don’t we all?
Thanks for sharing that, Edwin. I know that must be an enormous weight to have on you, and it is one of the most brutal and heart-wrenching things I've ever heard. Like you said, one day at a time. Trust is always a liability when it is offered. Trusting someone isn't always a good thing like people make it out, and it's given too freely. One thing you always got is yourself; be good to that guy inside you and keep him strong and ready.
DeleteThanks KT. It felt like a relief telling you all those months ago. Felt right sharing it now. That said I still had to take a few days away for self examination... and to start reading a new Sanderson book... let alone my crazy holiday season work schedule... 71 hours last week!!! That said I can see the impact sharing has had on me. So can others. My brother caught me flirting, seriously flirting as opposed to playful flirting, with a coworker last week and said it had been a while since he’d seen me in that mode. Heh.
DeleteYes, she does. It's only fiction but these characters feel so real that I can't help but get heated just thinking about them.
ReplyDeleteThat's right world apart.
DeleteMy first wife has a bit of Nia a bit of jess and a bit of Maggie. Plus a few others in there too (like Satan ...I think satan was in there too....noo I'm pretty sure he definitely was in the mix) best sex i ever had..glad it's over cause the trauma was just as bad as the sex was good only more of it. Young and dumb nuff said.
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DeleteI like your outlook on those memories, though. Ultimately they sucked but they helped shape the person you are now and you're better for it.
DeleteWho's Nia by the way? Of KT Morrison's works, I've read Losing His Wife (box 1 only), Maggie, Taken By His Best Friends, Size Curious Brat, and the two books in the Reza series.
Dude WA, pick up Cherry Blossoms tomorrow, that's her masterpiece. Nia is the female protagonist in that story. I'm on here filling up blog space with my drivel because of that book.
DeleteCherry Blossoms is also known as Losing His Wife 2
DeleteThat's a little confusing, I assumed Losing His Wife 2 would still be about Jess and Pete. I'm honestly scared to read Cherry Blossoms if that is her masterpiece... I'll read it though..heh
DeleteYou'll love it, I promise.
DeleteActually Jess and Pete pt2 is probably called Losing His Wife 1 Box 2...sorry I'm a little slow
DeleteAnd to think, KT was tossing around the idea of calling Maggie Losing His Wife 3!
DeleteWell that would spoil everything..
DeleteDon't you think so? Box 1 of Losing His Wife wasn't nearly as shocking to me as the Maggie series has been so far because it's all in the title. It's much easier to prepare myself emotionally when I can already predict the outcome. I haven't read box 2 or 3 but I already know... I think we all like that uncertainty and like Edwin said -- I think we're all just gluttons for punishment.
DeleteDon't take the titles so literally ... just saying.
DeleteProbably shouldn't but can't help but draw my own conclusions.
DeleteYeah for me I think LHW 2 (or Cherry Blossoms) is the best thing KT has written. Nia and Geoff were such great characters...I still think about them and have gone back and read the whole thing a few times since the last chapter was published in February.
DeleteMaggie is approaching that level for me...I don't recall KT saying she wanted to call this LHW 3...I always thought she wanted to think of it as distinct from that series...after all they're not married. And obviously the story evolved from what she originally planned anyway.
As for LHW 1...when I say its my 3rd favorite, that doesn't mean I don't like it...I did quite a bit. Its just for me Jess and Pete (and Tyler) are not quite at the same level as characters. But like any series, things should get better as you move forward.
My comment about LHW3 was just a joke about the different numbered parts and having different numbered series of LHW stories, which wouldnt help a newcomers navigation through her work im sure!
DeleteJL i seem to remember she said we can think of it as within that framework if we chose, but yeah ultimately wanted people to know it's different than than the LHWs.
I highly recommend Cherry Blossoms, WA. Seriously. Maggie is getting close, but Cherry Blossoms was something special.
DeleteFor the emotional trauma i went thru I think jess Pete and Tyler put me thru the ringer the most. Lhw2 Goodness I wanted to fuck nia.. She was hot and sexy and everything in between.. getting mixed up with rocko..nice...geoff nicer..it was as satisfying for me as lhw1 was disturbing. Lhw2 definetly gets my vote for best long read. But I'm still interested in Charlie's story too wonder how far she'll let Reza go. Before she either has to return to Johnny or quit him altogether.
DeleteOn Cole yea as a bestie I gotta assume there done especially since max pulled the ring (no wedding no best man) and best friends crashed and burned into enemies in less time than a humming bird wing beat. I thought the time line was longer but three weeks with these geeks was enough to kill a marriage and a friendship good thing they got it out of their system before the wedding.
Oh yea what wedding right...
Oh yea and one more thing I wonder if KT an give us 2 endings sort of a director's cut with an alternate ending...and let us fools declare best ending... naahh I better be happy with just an ending hopefully sooner than later ...is happy endings the name of the last Maggie book or is that another work in progress?
DeleteOh yea and one more thing I wonder if KT an give us 2 endings sort of a director's cut with an alternate ending...and let us fools declare best ending... naahh I better be happy with just an ending hopefully sooner than later ...is happy endings the name of the last Maggie book or is that another work in progress?
DeleteMy instincts are telling me it’s something else. We will see.
DeleteYea me too ...was hoping some one knew fer sur..
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DeleteIt's a new novel according to KT in the November 5th post.
DeleteHappy Endings is a novel with a beginning and an end. Typical me fashion, it began as a 25k word novella and is currently scratching 100k! That's why the delay. It's not really suitable for serialization, but it will in the end be roughly almost 2/3s as long as LHW1. I don't know why I do that. I just really like this husband and wife and I want to get deep in their psyches. Then I have to double back and rewrite or add scenes ... it's a whole thing. So, it will be out early January. In the meantime I have another short coming out next week that was set to be 12k and will of course then be around 25k. Running into the same problem, though, ha ha, where I'm getting to know more and more about them as I write and while I had an endpoint, part of me is curious about how bad their relationship could get ...
DeleteAs for Maggie: haven't started writing but I have a (digital) cork board covered with notecards showing all the scenes and progressions and I'm making it come together. Once its finalized then I write about 2,000+ words a day, so it looks like February for the last Maggie. And that makes me sad ...
I, for one, think that the word count you devote to appropriate set up and character development is one of the factors that helps your work reach such a consistently high quality.
DeleteAny chance you might be willing to share some clues on what these two new standalones are about?
Thanks, Glaucon! I always worry about giving too much away here because I have some pretty smart fucking readers and they know me by now; I give too much away and they'll have the story figured before it's published! I'll say this: Happy Endings is about a husband and wife (shocker!) and the wife is a masseuse (you saw that coming, lol). Hubby is a confident and capable and successful guy who discovers he has an inner cuckold and wants to explore it. Wife has her own agenda (she's a sweetheart who loves her hubby for real), and then throw in the mix a younger, richer, handsomer man who is her husband's own boss and shit gets complicated. There's a difficult dynamic between the two men—the younger man needs the husband which complicates things further. But essentially two alpha males butting heads over a housewife/mom/small business owner and she starts to enjoy the attention. There's more but I feel like I said too much already, ha ha. The shorter book is a Christmas theme story; the couple is mid-twenties, happy, and while they're new to me, I'm really starting to like them. It's making my stomach hurt which is always a good sign. It would fall into the Size Curious Brat territory.
DeleteThank you for the mini-previews! I'm very much looking forward to both of these and am interested to see how you play on the dynamics you've outlined. I'm extremely curious about this Christmas short, since you've demonstrated a particular facility in that Size Curious Brat territory that I feel is sorely underutilized.
DeleteAnyway I clearly have a dog in the race so I'll stop hounding you about it (you might remember my questions a while back about the bullying dynamic). I just try to show support but it's hard not to keep my own tastes out of things.
Yes—the bully dynamic! It's not entirely a bully story but I think you might like the interplay ...
DeleteThere's so many points when we're in the 'what's next?' phase after a story, that i worry that KT has secretly had it, and she's done writing intelligent smut for the masses. I see the consecutive weeks of status bar immobility and think that maybe it's over. Then, literally without fail, KT stops in and apologizes because she can't stop writing. I love how wrong I am.
DeleteHell, I can cross my fingers for that bully story one day and until then enjoy all the other excellent stories you put out.
DeleteI can't help but enjoy the way you put your stories together. 2000 word or 200000. I prefer longer stories with more dynamics than the shorter stories. However I'm a hypocrite because I loved Reza and also watching his wife on their honeymoon. As well as other shorts. So ill just go with enjoying all you're writings..this new one with the wife as a masseuse hits a little close to home wrt my first wife...so real interested in that one...
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ReplyDeleteHappy Endings is a stand alone story, like Pool Party was...its not the last chapter of the Maggie series.
ReplyDeleteWe kind of got an alternate ending to LHW 2 (at least through one of KT's posts on this site), maybe we'll get one here too.
Thanks ..mystery solved ...new story in da werks.
DeleteJust finished reading xleglover faithful wife's fall from grace book 2.
ReplyDeleteAhhh I'll go with mimicry as a highest form of praise.. but KT the whole max yanking the ring and mike yanking the ring a bit much maybe?
Took a look out of curiosity, i had been skimming that story as it progressed. Yeah there are several parallels aren't there? Jen getting it from Scott even though Mike really can't see them together again, Jen oblivious to Mike's reaction to them together and sharing with him her good news, and then obviously the ring stealing. I'd say parallel thinking if we didn't already know he is reading this series and it has to be near top of mind given the timing of that chapter.
DeleteTo be fair, it's not as if this genre can go in too many different directions to produce the same level of angst we all hate to enjoy.
Actually I think there's enough plot differences for each to be unique. The point i was referring to was the last paragraph of discovering and fqffg2 are about the same right down to the mag/jen going "no no wait" as he slipped the ring from her finger. I'm not a cop so I got nothing vested in it i just thought it either GMTA or copying an interesting end to his story. I thought he could have gone differently instead of the same. Maybe mike could have took his own ring off and left it on the voided deed to the loft or something. Oh well read it here first that gives max dibbs.....lol
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DeleteOops meant uncovering maggie.
DeleteJust read that chapter as well. That last scene was definitely inspired by Uncovering Maggie. X does that every now and then, I remember a scene in one of his other stories that was very similar to something from Reluctant Cuckold. His writing is very direct and to the point. Hard to miss, really. I think it's fitting with all the build up with the loft. Harder to get to in that story, for sure, but fitting in that context.
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DeleteGuess the ring thing works in both stories but like I mentioned earlier he could have put his own twist on it. I guess it's what mike would have done anyway. As he felt jen left him much like max felt Maggie left him.
DeleteI email a buddy on the subject once in awhile and I understand the cuckold POV it's not easy to grasp for non cucks..but when the cuck is going thru his angst and wringing his hands over every little diss or minute detail like "she didn't say this or do that and she always does" for me to understand the mind set I add in a he thinks or says it with a giggle..because deep down it's what they want even if deep down they don't. So I contradict the angst with a "I got what I want" giggle.
X's stories are interesting because they all star the same characters. And in every story, he pushes them a little farther and their breaking point shifts a little farther away. But they always break and I find that very interesting. I hate Jen in every story, eventually. But each time it takes me a bit longer to get there.
DeleteI read your comment before I read the last chapter and it spoiled the timing a little bit but I knew it would happen eventually. I think the loft and starting a family thoughts added a lot to the intensity of that scene, maybe even more so than in Uncovering Maggie. That's a twist, I think. And it's not like he's profiting off these stories anyway. It's just a very powerful scene and I assure you it's only praise and flattery.
This isn't the first time in one of his stories where Mike reaches his breaking point and throws out an engagement ring or two.
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DeleteI'm hoping for a conclusion to both stories max and Maggie and mike and Jen. They are both different stories obviously but I don't think either story is complete yet. If KT hadn't committed to another book in Maggie's tale id still feel like one was due..
DeleteSame with X' s story it's not the end but a break. If max/Mike loves Mag/jen than when she crawls, creeps or jumps back into his life he will take her back because she's the love of his life of course. Otherwise we still wanna know who ends up with mag/jen as the drama is to heavy to be ignored and that level of drama trauma has to affect the heart one way or another.
On hating jen. Yea I sometimes get tired of her antics I also lay a lion share at Mike's feet. She only goes as far as mike let's her and she has mike by the gonads because he allows a lot and is forgiving for every rule broken like said earlier when I read Mike's story I always mentally add in a maniacal giggle to his thoughts. Helps me Cope with him being so soft.
I see with max some of those traits however in max he's actually building to a meltdown while mike thrives on the suffering dear ole max accumulates pain to a point where he doesn't enjoy any of it. When was the last time he got a excited by Maggie and whoever. I still haven't made up my mind on Maggie Idk if she's stupid in lust with Cole or has a greater plan in mind..i think the key seperation between KT land and X land. Is KT's depth of detail. The characters and the environment in which the operate are as real as could be without being there..the subtlety of just the hand gesture the way max grabbed by the wrist pushing his thumb into the palm making the fingers curl...etc.. you don't find that level of detail in any other authors work. and I'm at the point were I've just about run out of authors to read ....yea I'm a perv. But it's only behind the eyes.
I haven't read the story, but there's bound to be crossovers in all these books and stories. Girls are going to be bad and their men are going to support them. They're going to have sex with other guys and there's going to be pleasure and problems. Taking a ring back seems like a natural progression in events and I don't think my own take was particularly original or ground-breaking. Max did it to hurt her. xleglover's characters have to behave in ways that make sense to xleglover and taking a ring back is pretty obvious when that ring symbolizes something the other has broken—meaning if that's what the character would do, then do it!
DeleteIt's funny 'cause I was just reading another author's work (which I try not to do) and was getting bummed out because there were things in it that I thought I had thought up on my own and here this other person was illustrating the same thing. Took the wind out of my sails! There's only so much ground you can cover, and to me, the same things will happen in most of these stories—that's why I think the development of characters is so important. Then it's not the author relating these stories and scenarios to you, it's (seemingly) real people, and you want to know how they will handle it. The characters understanding of sharing someone you love and how they navigate those dangerous waters is what's compelling. So if someone replicated my characters I might get sweaty palms then. Like a half-Chinese half-Dutch girl with restrictive parents and excellent grades meeting a boy who comes from a good solid family and they come together at college and their relationship is troubled by a stunning best friend/best man lacrosse player who is very capable and charming and Harvard-bound ... then I might say heywaitasecond ...
The plots are very different just from the stand point of Max and Maggie just starting out and mike and Jen been at it for 10 plus years. But by xlegs own admission uncovering Maggie influenced the out come of his story. It works for both story's and as previously mentioned it's not the first time wedding/engagement rings were weaponized.
Deletejust for clarity here's what xleglover said:
Delete(Xleglover)
"But I really like KT's stories, and in fact I just finished the latest Maggie book so that no doubt influenced the ending of my book. If you like cuck stories (or just well written stories with alot of angst) you should definitely get the Maggie series on Amazon. KT's Losing His Wife books (there are 2 series) are really good too. Buy the collected volumes, they are cheaper that way."
So a compliment and a plug.. awesome.
That's so awesome! Love to see she has fans in other spots too.
DeleteI don't understand that people think he is KT though, I find that hilarious there's this recurring theory convinced of that!
I appreciate xleglover's support for sure, and love that he is a fan. I've just started reading this Jen and Mike story (166,311 words!?) to see what's up. Great stuff so far (lol, I'm one chapter in)! I really do find it hard to read other writers in the genre because I'm always afraid of leakage into my own work. I feel like there will always be leakage but at least if I'm oblivious ...
DeleteI've read a lot of xleglover's stuff and liked them, though I often get confused since in every story the main characters are named Mike and Jen...its hard to keep track of each different story. I really liked the largest Mike/Jen story, the one where they have a daughter (Anna)...the more recent ones haven't been as enjoyable for me at least.
ReplyDeleteI know he's a fan of KT, and I don't have a big issue with the ending of his latest part. But it did hit a little too on the nose for me, and it didn't have the same emotional impact for me as Max walking in on Maggie and Cole. There's so much history and interplay with those three, not so much between Mike and the boyfriend in X's story.
I also laugh at the idea that he's KT...for some reason there are a lot of theories about him being other others who publish and Literotica or on Amazon. He seems to inspire the conspiracy theories (in fact I sense he enjoys them)...
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DeleteI support and encourage that two are one...
DeleteJust look at the irrefutable proof..both are high quality authors of the cuckold genre. One is posting/publishing while the other is silent.
One has admitted that if he were KT he'd publish on amazon....so if he was KT he'd publish on amazon...kt has published on amazon. There fore he is .....
Ok I'm just making shit up to keep the pot stewing .. but if x has been reading KT's stories it therefore should go that he checks this blog out...so one of YOU could be xleglover.
Even I could be he..just like me to stir the pot. Ahh like who you ask....? Have we reached 4th dimensional chess level yet?
You think therefore we are?
DeleteHa ha, I could totally believe one of you is xleglover. (Narrows eyes on each of you)
DeleteAs far as selling on Amazon: he can still post for free and also publish on Amazon. He just can't ever be in Kindle Unlimited with a book he posts online. Some people would buy his books even if they're free, just for the convenience of not having to Columbo their way through a 90-page thread like I just did. I would have dropped some bucks to have it as a one-click easy read on my iPad. Others would, too, just for the appreciation of the tremendous amount of work he's putting into it, and the entertainment he delivers. Plus he could find an enormous audience out there who are hungry for books like his and have never heard of that forum.
First off it's not me I can't put two thoughts together coherently verbally let alone writing them down..lol.
DeleteSecondly your work is extemely (and i love it) detailed hat it could never really be interpreted as anyone's but yours. You seem to live for the nuances. This latest Maggie tale is a major example of that. You got so many.
details that after how many hundred of thousand words we still have no clue who is gonna end up with who. (Or is with whom see told you I couldn't write) it's the primary reason I enjoy your stories more than any others and it's a very long list of others.
I enjoy xlegs stories too he seems to be able to tap into the cuckold angst almost as good as you. But his advantag/disadvantage is using the same two characters based on himself and his wife. (No they aren't in the life style accodsing to him but he is a wanna be.) The benefit is instant charactor recognition and a need for less charactor build up. U could go on and on why I like your stories better than any others. I've stated the point time and again...as have others with whom I totally agree. Keep it coming. (I think I spelled that right 😉)
My thoughts on Xleglover -
DeleteHe was one of my favorites, he is really good at writing to the kink. The beginnings of his stories are scorching hot, and his endings are pretty good too, but they're only pretty good because his middle is soooo drawn out! And, look, I get why, he's writing this out of interest, he's writing to entertain, I think especially it has to do with the fact that he and his wife are kind of co-writers (isn't that right?) so they kind of egg each other on for each other and why bring that to an end if you're having fun right? It just complete dilutes the emotions of the story that absolutely pivotal if Jen has betrayed Mike's trust 30-40 times (I'm not sure if that's an exaggeration), and the best Mike comes up with continues to be, "well okay, but you better not next time!"
I've said this before, but as it contrasts with X it is relevant here -- X, to me, is a writer who writes sex scenes for their own sake, KT is a writer who (even if she did write it for it's own sake), really makes it a part of the storyline. I don't want frivolous sex, how can it mean anything to us, we lovers of this genre, if it doesn't have value to any of the characters or their arc? KT counted the words of "A Faithful Wife's Falling From Grace" and who among us would disagree that probably only half of them really added value to the story?
I feel like an asshole right now, like I said, I get what he is trying to do, but he is NOT KT.
Just because I feel like I've been too hard on one of my favorite authors, I will say one of my absolute favorite stories in this genre of all time, one of my "formative" stories if you will, is the "He Fucked My Girl" series ... I love how this is the only time I've ever admitted this to anyone else and I'm talking about it as if it is a story that isn't titled "He Fucked My Girl" ... anyways, that story was awesome ...
Delete... and then he made like three other series building off of that 10 part series that was really well done!
Ah, I'm doing it again. Anyways, that series was AMAZING for me. It ties into a personal kink about the hot roommate of a boyfriend (wink, KT). It's in his literotica page if anyone wants to read that.
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DeleteYea hfmg really set the standard for the whole follow on series.
DeleteStop reading here if you intend to read the story..
Ending with C&R. The wine cellar had us all in heavy discussion for weeks and was constantly refered back to in later chapters by the peanut gallery. The other pivotal moment at the end whew....wow and wow..than the whole Cali thing which again was being tossed around through the entire series as to what happened there. The great mystery...which to be honest didn't meet the hype we had all set for it. But kept us on edge through AIMH, consequences, C&R , I think there was another one in there but can't remember it.
Hey guys. miss me? I've been contemplating what to say? it's so hard, I did say way back at MaggieI that this was going to be a long 10 months and that is still true today. First shout out to KT, for once again doing what she does best. I curse Max for taking the blame for everything, Maggie chested first, but sharing a moment with Jay way back before Max learned about it. Emotionally cheating is cheating...touching someone other than your fiance is cheating... I hope you also remember me saying Cole was out to steal Maggie for himself, that comes true as well...How do you tell Max to leave? Why did no one call him out on that? Why did Maggie go to Cole to celebrate? Why did she think it was ok to share that with Cole & NOT Max?
ReplyDeleteI was very surprised by Max's stance at the end, I didn't think he had it in him. Like Geoff finally standing up to Nina..about damn time! But I was troubled by his "I just made the biggest mistake of my life" as the closing...clearly he still doesn't get it! She went too far, Cole went to far..respect the boundaries! He is partially to blame, when he was uncomfortable or didn't want them playing alone he didn't speak up! Max always has a problem speaking the truth save the other persons feelings.
Something else I picked up on...when Maggie's mom called and asked her to come home..bring Max & Cole...um why Cole?? Is it possible she has the tape?? Now that we know the brother doesn't have it! Hoping KT ties up that loose end in the next chapter...speaking of the next chapter is that the final installment?
As always Desperately Waiting ...
Yea it was a pivot point for max. The thing about being a cuckold is it only works when the wife/fiancee/significant other. Is still connected to the cuck.. I think max knows Maggie still loves him but she hasn't really shown him. Yes she tries to include him in her trysts every chance she had. But she broke the connection by being more connected to cole. Hence the outburst. About it being the biggest mistake of his life ..it could be simply he thinks he made a mistake taking the ring back...or deeper regretting having giving it to her in the first place or deeper yet reflecting on his sneaking about and allowing Maggie and jay than Maggie and cole to play around for his own selfish kink.
DeleteI really try not to make this board a constant stop in my life, but you guys keep reeling me back in. Anyways, look who it is, your friendly neighborhood contrarian 2b2h!
DeleteFirst things first ... DW!!!!!!
Secondly, I agree with you on the fact that Max shouldn't feel like he needs to shoulder all the blame, and that he is partially to blame for things get out of hand, but I think it's more than that. I have so many words on this though I might bore people to tears, but here is centrally my point, the "going too far" is Max's fault too. You guys remember when Max (in the heat of passion) tried to convince Maggie to get Jay to fall in love with her? I do. Let's leave out that he wasn't talking about Cole, that he might not have truly meant it, he never wanted Maggie to fall in love with another man (obviously), all well and good. How are you going to reel back your future wife if you've laid down THAT level of manipulation of other men, as ok?
Max is messing up too (who actually asks their wife to do that kind of thing? I mean seriously, Max ... ), and honestly, the ring taking could arguably be considered unfair. I mean, up until now, Maggie has had absolutely minimal indication of the actual bad hurt (as opposed to the erotic kind) that Max is through with what she's doing with Cole (and some with Jay), to the point where going nuclear with the ring stealing is almost overly dramatic. Hey Max, here's an idea, if you want your future wife to stop messing around with another guy after you've established that it's okay that she does mess around, start with a thumbs down emoji?
Here's an original thought from me, Max has hurt his position to be able to complain about where Maggie is right now because he never allowed Maggie to feel guilty about what she's been doing. It has snowballed to a point where it out of his control, and Maggie never had to feel shame because of Max. She does feel shame because she knows how she is truly feeling, but Max confuses it by egging it on. IIs there a reason why Maggie wanted to get with Jay way back in the beginning other than new experiences? Maybe Maggie never wanted to do this thing for Max and her, she said it was for the both of them, but does she really know? How can any of them figure it out if they never talk it out?
I love how, when I think about it, talking it out has been made difficult just by virtue of the circumstances. I fucking love this author so much you guys.
And on the tapes - at first I wanted to say that Ken eventually confessed to Maggie that he did destroy the tapes, and that continues to be the most sensible thing to conclude after Maggie asked him, "Did you delete the tapes?" to which he replied "What do you think?"
Technically though, he didn't say he did ... so maybe he didn't, and mom got a hold of them? I still think Momma Becker would not wait until now to drop that kind of bombshell, that seems like something that would be a '3 o'clock in the morning' type of phone call with her personality ...
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DeleteI still say max.should ignore the meeting request and not attend. But at the same time arrange another. Meeting with his own family and explain how he screwed up with out giving details. And that he needs some time and space to get his head together.
Delete@2b=2h
Delete"Hey Max, here's an idea, if you want your future wife to stop messing around with another guy after you've established that it's okay that she does mess around, start with a thumbs down emoji?"
Don't entirely disagree with your points but just want to point out that earlier that morning he told her to be a good girl. And when your fiance is sending you pics of some other guys junk grinding against her pussy, do you really think it matters at that point whether or not Max gives her the thumbs up or down? Genuinely curious what you think about that.
Max didn't make her feel guilty but I don't believe ridicule is necessary for two adults to understand each other's boundaries. Boundaries were set -- Maggie broke them. Doesn't matter whether or not Max hurt her feelings for it afterwards. My opinion in a nutshell.
WA, yes I think Maggie shouldn't have done what she did behind Max's back. And Maggie should know better, but we're repeating ourselves on this aren't we? Didn't i say that thing about Max even knew she was going to do it again, and like Cole said, "what's really 'being good' to Max anyways?" I'm repeating myself at this point. You're right though, the words were said, "be good" while he was away.
DeleteMy point above though is less about that specific incident and more about how little ground Max has to stand on when he never opened up to her early on and challenged his girlfriend (or himself) on what her being bad means. Or why he instigated it. Had he confronted Maggie on this earlier (insert: the story would suck), he has grounds to stand on. That is my point, in s nutshell.
A new thought though goes back to our conversation about "well Max never had a chance to learn what any of this means before Maggie amplified the story." It's true, and it's also true of Maggie. She is just as clueless as to what this all meant to her she started, but I think she's learned.
Max might (read might) have prevented a terrible situation by confronting her about Jay in the beginning, might have needed to break up with her to avoid a calamity, who knows? He didnt though, and the one rule in this story that felt the strongest seemed to be, "always break rules."
Actually, as for the specific note about why didn't Max start with a thumbs down emoji, my point there is that, at least from Maggie's perspective, Max never let on enough that he was truly hurt by her actions, and that there really should have been a step in between, "could you maybe not?" and "the wedding is off!!!" in trying to convey Max's point. That's why I said the thing about taking her ring might have been an overreaction.
DeleteAs I've already stated though, and I think it's a consensus among everyone here, we're finally glad Max did something that gets to Maggie! So doing what he did was important
@DW and it was also a terrific point about Max missing the point about doing what he did and it being a mistake, I said as much in part one of the massive novel that is the reaction to KT's wotk.
Their one rule was to let Max watch.
DeleteMaggie is the one dipping her hand in the candy jar and in scenarios like this, asking for forgiveness instead of permission isn't advisable. Max shouldn't need to confront her afterwards and tell her she was bad. She already knew. She's not clueless; she was scared of hurting Max throughout this story.
What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that taking the ring back as abruptly as he did was unfair. These are grown people, they don't need time outs when they break rules nor do they need progress cards every week to establish whether or not cheating is okay. You say minimal indication, "little ground to stand on", I say obvious virtues of right and wrong being broken. That scene was fucking legendary and I wouldn't change a single thing about it. I think Maggie got exactly what she had coming.
When was "Max should be allowed to watch" the rule? When Max and Cole planned for Cole to seduce Maggie and pretend he wasn't even there? Or when Maggie met up with Jay with only the vague hints that something might happen after Max dropped her off? Or the part when Max agreed that Maggie and Cole have a relationship, without him? That confuses things really quick in any subsequent points about, "please don't cheat when I'm not around." That has been my point the entire time! Rules didn't mean anything ... until they meant something.
DeleteAnd I agree with you about the virtues of right and wrong, in a world where cheating is a bad thing to do, but we're not exactly in that world in this story, are we? So, the virtues in this worldview become a hell of a lot mirkier when they've decided to strip away what is "obvious virtues of right and wrong" right?
I was about to run down the list of instances where Maggie knew she was hurting Max and even talked to Max about it and he did nothing but instigate more and more! Not talk about how bad it is, not drop the ultimatum, instead he gets her to like doing bad things even though she knows it's wrong (in fact, because it's wrong!) and now he goes right for total destruction having done nothing of substance up until that point? He needed to do something, but it might have been too much at the time, or maybe too late.
Maggie got what she had coming, but it is a hollow victory for Max, and MAYBE a touch unfair.
But like I said, he needed to do something, and he finally did.
Last thing I'll say that is something I haven't brought up before. Did anyone else noticed how Maggie phrased that she didn't want to break the rule with Cole? She framed it as her rule that she didn't want to break, not Max's. I take that as a sign she did not know if she was breaking any rules with Max.
DeleteMax said very plainly what he was afraid of, that they would mock and laugh at him, then leave him behind. Maggie made the rule that he always had to be there if not involved, until she decided on the open relationship in the previous book. Wish washy as Max has been he specifically told her what he didn’t want to happen, she reassured him, then did it anyway. And it was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.
DeleteNot sure why my response was separated from this tree but I'd like to add more. I don't think Maggie is clueless. She's aware of her partners limitations and isn't just blindly exploring, having a good time with no throttle to keep her from going too far. She knows. This paragraph is some inner monologue of Maggie's from Secret Maggie, Max is leaving to tutor some students before the dorm room scene:
Delete'He kissed her then, she turned his cheek to him. He held her hand and she kissed his mouth. His eyes trembled with all he wanted to say, but his mouth stayed closed. Maybe he wanted to appear that he trusted her. She wanted him to trust her. It was distinctly possible however that he loved the danger. He was thrilled by her hanging out with Cole after what they'd done. If she asked him if this was okay he'd say No, but if she didn't he'd twist and turn not knowing what they were doing without him, and strangely he would get off on it.'
Later paragraphs confirm that she wants to have sex with Cole again. She's not clueless about what's going on; she knows Max would say no and decides that her own desire supersedes Max's feelings. She knows that this type of thing isn't a scenario where Max is required to punish her afterwards otherwise her actions are redeemable. She knows you must ask for permission for this kind of thing, not just do it and expect some backlash after the fact and expect things to be kosher. She knows Max's limits but she doesn't ask -- decides to use Max's perversion against him and sets the path for what happens next (which was betrayal btw) because worst case scenario, Max will hate it but also love it. Yeah she's not clueless.
Yeah it gets murky with all that stuff that you described and I don't remember where the conversation is exactly but Max makes it clear early on he wants to be there.
ReplyDeleteThe points I was making fail logic after the points you made take place but they don't before then. And before that stuff happens, Maggie already went into the music room without him and already had anal sex with Cole behind his back. That would be the end of the story if I was in Max's position.
After those two specific scenes I mentioned, Max's mentality is basically "holy shit who is this person and how do I fix it" mixed with lust. He didn't say anything because he was scared. Minus the lust part, it's not dissimilar to finding out your close friend is a murderer. And he's around you all the time. Assuming you're scared of this person, you don't say "hey man, don't murder me," just like Max didn't tell Maggie "hey, please don't have sex with Cole while I'm tutoring." Not exactly 1:1 but you get my point..
So he doesn't say anything and now Maggie's actions are harder to clarify if they're right or wrong for their relationship because Max doesn't tell her anything (of substance). So we have to use our understandings of right and wrong in order to judge Maggie's actions. Yes, Maggie's actions were justified after the restaurant scene where she fake "cheated" on Max and afterwards where Max is seemingly encouraging her. But that doesn't exonerate her for her indiscretions in Cole's dorm room. Personally I think that was her greatest crime and was a terrible thing to do. The verdict came much later than I wanted but it still came back to bite her.
The scenes leading up to the dorm room scene are great examples of what I was talking about earlier. Max was too afraid to say anything. Afraid of this person she was becoming. And now she's her ultimate form; what exactly happened in that office? Why was she so happy that she rushed to tell Cole? I don't know but I suspect she's now incompatible with Max.
I'll offer some clarification here (and I don't think I'm giving anything away, these details are in the book, not directly stated but alluded to):
Delete1. Max told Maggie to be good while he was gone. He honestly didn't expect her not to have sex with Cole. Really meaning, Don't do anything too crazy. During internal discourse when he is in the hotel room in San Diego he wonders why she's being so weird ... the whole time he is away and Maggie and Cole are fishing for permission he doesn't even realize they're fishing for permission, he thinks they're just teasing him.
2. Maggie took his words 'to be good' before he left as something of a challenge because they brought up some level of guilt in her because he is going home to his parents. She does have a soft spot for the Maxwells and while she'll get up to all sorts of disrespectful things in the Becker home, the eyes of a loving family like her Max's make her feel a certain shame. Max did say to be good and she fluffs that in Cole's face but her abstinence was more self-imposed. She chastises herself over breaking her own rule at one point ...
And, ha ha, WA, she didn't have anal sex with Cole, remember—that was just 'practice.' It was for the greater good and proclaimed beforehand that it wasn't sex. So, you know ... ah, I guess she lied to herself ...
I'm talking about the scenes leading up to the "anal sex practice," which was a book or two before Max went to San Diego and told Maggie to be good. They all had pizza together then Max had to go tutor some students and left the two of them alone for the evening. I'm probing the scenes before it trying to find some juicy damning evidence of Maggie being bad..
DeleteThanks for the clarification, though. Missed the part where Max thought they were teasing him. I guess it's because I interpreted more like torture..
Throwing my two cents in ill try not to hit anyone.
DeleteI still think there was some emotional or mental alteration of Maggie after Coles seduction at the hotel with max in the closet. It seems to me that was at some level an act of betrayal on all their parts planned or otherwise. After this we see maggie More focused on Cole. She sleeps curled up with Cole and back to max a couple of times..it may just be the story teller showing max s angst ..but I also think Maggie has a degree of "if this is what you want be careful what you wished for". Max and Maggie are still new and inexperienced at this game and cole is, so he's been taking advantage.
Now after all that I still can't put a finger on Maggie and say right there she said it did this which means she's this or that...all I can can come up with is she is a knowing and active participant in the game. She knows what she's doing she's not stupid or naive but she also hasn't the experience to know just how bad things could get. she is aware her decisions with Cole will have some impact on max does she really believe he's loving it?..that wouldn't be an assumption i think she would make. Maybe with Coles help it's more like he loves me and he'll be ok with it.
Now getting some baser instincts she was primed to cheat on max from the get go. Then max gives her the all clear and she goes way beyond max s expectations.
Back to my favorite quote:
"What did you think would happen?" So Maggie has more to disclose to me. Something Is missing from her and max and it's more than just lack of communication. Maybe a feeling that max set her up to fail several times. So he deserves this. Cole
Too. Idk
We won't know for sure til next year.
Btw i think max is actually xleglover....lol.sorry couldn't resist.
That mental alteration you mentioned about Maggie is also the same time Max decided enough was enough. Tried to find a way out, eventually went to San Diego, etc. All the reaffirmation from him from this point on is him more or less saying "whatever, do what you gotta do, got things to do, SEE YA!" ..So this mental fog that he's in goes on for a while, he goes to San Diego, and then the Chris Brown scene happens and forces the confrontation.
DeleteYou comment about xleglover reminded me of user on the forum he posts his story...this guy named MikeAndrewsBalls. Name cracks me up..
DeleteYea i used to be on the site and had some.interesting banter with MAB and company. Then the benevolent dictator and I had a falling out of sorts..another words he pissed me off and I left. I had posted my own little story on there too, but the rift was great and I told him to delete my prof and all my posts.
DeleteSomething else I haven't figured out about Maggie. Even after her brother warned her about Cole she still hit the sack with him...is she brainwashed, brain dead or just hard over heels in love with cole..unable to resist him after a warning from someone she knew had her back.
DeleteJohn, Ken didn't warn Maggie about anything, he just wanted to know if she was making decisions for herself. He even asked her to say hi to cole for him, that hardly comes from a place concerned with impending doom.
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DeleteWhile that's technically accurate I was going with this part of the convo:
Delete“I want you to go to law school, Maggie. I want you to do it for the right reasons.” “I’m going to law school for me, Ken. Nothing to do with mother, nothing to do with father, or anyone else for that matter.” “Nothing to do with Cole?” She hesitated, the silence drawing long and thin between them. She said, “I might not even go to Harvard.” Though she knew that was a lie.
The whole conversation to me was brother looking out for sister. Making sure her head was in the right place and he gave a plug to max but a cautionary inquisitive about cole. That's just my interpretation. When i read between the lines which I'm thinking Maggie can do too. It's do what's best for you not mom dad or Cole. And btw max is a good guy.. So Cole gets lumped in with the other 2 antagonists to Maggie. Splitting hairs maybe just a little but its how i see it. It'll be one of those moments when ken goes "I tried to warn you"
It's also telling that Maggie recognises max has problems. Maybe that admission is the downfall for max and Maggie. "He's a good guy with problems"......and what? Of course ken knows the problem is Cole via Max s convo with him. Ah well we need more story to get to the real meat.
We're going to need Maggie Uncovered: Part 3 in a few days it seems...the way its going we're going to need part 7 before the last part is out. I remember being tortured that it took a couple of weeks for the last part of LHW1 and about a month for the finale of LHW2 to come out. Waiting until February for this is gonna be hard.
ReplyDeleteIn other news, hope everyone here has a Happy Holidays, whatever one it is you celebrate, and that you're surrounded by family and friends. And hopefully not being cucked out of your place with your wife and kids like Pete Mapplethorpe was in LHW1...unless you want to be cucked of course...then enjoy.
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Delete@ jl23 on waiting
DeleteIt's akin to watching the clock every few seconds waiting for the work shift to end..soooo...I'm at work waiting to get off......
Also wishing all a great holiday with merriment and joyful wining and dinning..
My last thought for the year(Yea right like I can resist..2b2h understands) on uncovering Maggie..
As max is storming away from Maggie and Cole. The exit music begins to play ..."let her go" by passenger.
To my Morrisonheads and KT, happy holidays to you all! I really appreciate what JL and John said, I think you all are some awesome people to talk a dirty, dirty story with. It's nice to find a little corner of the internet that isn't rife with trolls (maybe Bradley was for a minute, just kidding, but not really). Especially given the subject matter!
DeleteAnyways, I can't wait to see what's in store for KT in 2018. Remember last year around this time? We were dying to know what was going to happen with Nia and Rocco, ha!
Next year this time will be saying remember last year we could hardly wait for the last book of Maggie series to come out...world goes around and around. And so does max, Maggie
Deleteand. Cole. Still holding the resoulution.
40/1
A couple of thoughts on Maggie. One has already been talked about, but I don't think it has been mentioned in this light, is it possible that Maggie could be leading Cole on? We talked about how she might not be sure of what damage she's causing, but there are several occasions in this and DM that Maggie didn't say she loves Cole, or that she wants to only be with him, optimg not to go there presumably. But her actions could be interpreted by him as a way of agreeing or warming up to the idea. I think she might be, but maybe not, and she just likes the idea of a man as amazing as Cole being head over heels for her. Who wouldn't right? Except before the ring grabbing, she seemed to be keeping with her high passionate levels without qualifications (i.e. " ... but this is over after the wedding"). I think Maggie will finally be challenged to say how she feels about Cole. I think it's really telling how Maggie thinks of Cole when she is panicked by Jay's attack. Not Max. Was that the context of the situation that had her thinking of Cole?
ReplyDeleteA prediction for what's next. I don't know how this ends, but I absolutely cannot wait. I think there are three major reasons to think Maggie and Max will possibly get back together too soon and then damage will REALLY get done afterwards.
1) They have to keep up appearances in a week! Carol and Martin will probably destroy worlds if the wedding is cancelled (or maybe not based on Mom's request to postpone?). Certainly the rationale for why they would need to cancel would lead to some consequences but we'll see!
2) Max feels guilty about taking the ring. It probably felt good and he certainly needed to act, but he knows (I'm prepared for another round of 'you're wrong 2b2h') he overreacted taking the ring the way he did. Max will feel bad and want Maggie to forgive that act and apologize.
3) Maggie has never made someone else mad at her (until Jay). She will probably do whatever it takes to hear Max say the words that he loves her and wants her back, even if she doesn't really know if she is ready to only be his.
The fact that the three of them will be under one roof once more forced to act like nothing is wrong, the heightened sexual connection between Cole and Maggie, the excitement of being bad, and now with literal surveillance on full alert and no one to erase tapes, the last chapter might make for some truly compelling stuff!
Not sure about the not loving Cole I don't remember her saying it or not if she did was it in the depths of passion. But i agree that Maggie could be the master mind flipping buttons and pulling levers.
DeleteOn your points:
1 max should suddenly have a family emergency it will be unable to attend. It may look like an act of cowardice but he really needs time to clear his head and make a plan that works for him..and maybe Maggie too.
2. I think your spot on with the guilt and such..where we differ is I don't think it was an over reaction. It was what was needed at the moment.
If he feels bad it should be that he let it get to the point of grabbing the ring.
3. You're probably right here too she didn't pursue him unless we open next book to find Maggie running down the street half naked after max.
Maybe Maggie's epiphany comes in the form that she can hurt max emotionally as much as jay hurt her emotionally.
If max goes(Or not) It'll be a blood fest. Mom and dad are wondering why all the kids have such a dour look on their faces.
It would be wicked if h doesn't show and mom and pops say.."wheresmax? Nvm. How are you two guys doing? Cole if max gets wet feet you gonna stand in for him??"
Parents looking to push max out of the picture...now that would be dirty...
Ooo, that would be pretty good, John!
DeleteJust for fun:
Delete"Cole be a dear go up.to.my room and get my sweater.?I'm feeling a little chilly"
"Yes ma'am"
As Cole reaches the sweater sitting on a chair next to the bed, the door closes. He turns to see a topless tiger mom
"Ahhhh....Mrs Robinson i mean carol..are trying to seduce me? And you look even more chilly "
Just for fun:
Delete"Cole be a dear go up.to.my room and get my sweater.?I'm feeling a little chilly"
"Yes ma'am"
As Cole reaches the sweater sitting on a chair next to the bed, the door closes. He turns to see a topless tiger mom
"Ahhhh....Mrs Robinson i mean carol..are trying to seduce me? And you look even more chilly "
Meh, you lost me, haha!
Delete2B, for what it’s worth I do think you are right, in that Max thinks or will think he overreacted. I personally may feel he didn’t, but we saw a glimpse of it in his thoughts at the end. There’s no doubt in my mind that is where he will be going.
ReplyDeleteAnd despite whatever we, who have experience or maturity or neither, may think or advise these characters are still young and prone to mistakes and hopefully growth. That said I’m betting all three end up at the parent’s house.
Will Maggie chase Max or does Max beg Maggie?
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DeleteI don't think we know what he thinks his mistake was. if he has an immature attitude could be he thinks the mistake was trusting Cole and now Maggie is in love with Cole. Could be his ending his relationship with Maggie was the mistake or was it getting with her in the first place..was it (the mistake) hiding in the close(most likely not). Was it not being "man enough" to defend her integrity with cole or jay. Was it that he allowed another a better(in his eyes) man into his Maggie's life. Was it that he didn't catch up with her after her meeting with the professor. Or was it the ring pull like most of us have been thinking. We could say yes to all of these but as youngin's they don't think past 2 minutes ago. So I'm going with the he should have never let Cole in or trusted him and breaking up with Maggie.
DeleteAs ed says in our maturity we know because we are outside the story. But from their perspective perhaps.
As to going to the parents max may think what for They're broke up no max no wedding so someone probably Cole will have to convince max to go..unless max goes all postal and tries to burn both Cole and mags by showing up and calling off the wedding. Doesn't sound like him though. Then there's that dead silence when everyone goes "ok Cole your up next" .
My guess is he left his favorite jacket in the hotel room..
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DeleteLol ...could it be that sinple??
DeleteMAX.burst back into the room Cole is still consoling Maggie. She looks up with hope in her eyes ...
Cole asks "WHAT do you want now max haven't you done enough?"
Max looks at him and her and with urgency says
"I need to piss!" Darts for the head almost slipping in the food on the floor..after few minutes of much needed relief ...he storms back out, grabbing his jacket on the way. Takes a last look back while Maggie is trying to formulate words continuing the "I'm sorry" mantra. Looks Cole dead in his eye.."you owe me 20 bucks for the lunch!" Slams the door again and much more relieved.
"By the way, I'm gonna need a ride back to my dorm ---- I'll text you."
DeleteBe interesting if he runs into jessie. And maybe gets some back story on his best buddies sexual prowess.
DeleteJust wanted to say I got a kick out of WA in this exchange.
DeleteI'll add, "... and, uh can you not tell your dad about this until after i get my internship? No, you're telling them now? Ok got it."
Anybody Netflix viewers here? I just watched episode 2 of 'Easy' Season 2, and it featured an open relationship. It was pretty damn good stuff. Heartwrenching but had a nice ending.
ReplyDeleteJust throwing it out there for this lot.
Ill have to check it out. I was browsing NFLX earlier today came across Jennifer love-hewitt stopped in to see what it's about and dam she's hot.. "client list" suckered me right in when she does that female version of "blue steel" you know the one where she looks like she's about to cry..gets all pouty then lays that sweet smile on you.. Bing watching the rest tomorrow.....im so easy it's pathetic. Lol
DeleteIt's not cucky but has potential.