The End
Well, that last post got a little bogged down with comments!
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But I will start a new post here, and comments can continue on this one...
I will put a post here soon on my thoughts on my ending.
Sorry for the delay! Here is the post:
Literature, to me, is about character journeys. The people you see in the beginning of the book should be transformed in some way by the end. I don't think Nia should behave the same way at the end of the book as she does in the beginning. Nia is supposed to do a 180. And yet, Nia’s transformation is circular. It’s a practical 360. If you think my ending is contrived you were probably reading too fast. Read it again with some care. I believe it would have been far more unbelievable if Nia didn’t go back to Geoff. Their reunion isn’t a simple one. I left a lot of the badness unsaid. Purposely so it would appear as a happy ending. I wanted it to feel like that, but think some more on it. There is more to it than there might appear. There is hope in it, yes, and for that I apologize, ha ha.
Listen, Nia had missed that big-dick-pulse-pounding sex but it would be a little shallow to think that’s all she wants from life. In real life girls want more than that. The fling was what worked, that was fun, they even admit through internal discourse that her having sex with Dino and Rocco wasn’t bad, it was the lying and the infidelity from eight years ago. Plus, Nia knows this: macho guys with big dicks are fun for about six months but they come with a whole host of other problems. Nia didn’t get along with them when she was twenty. She’s going to get along with them now? She’d been sexualized at a young age to appreciate rough masculine men. She’s attracted to that. But she also likes her independence. Geoff let her be herself. Rocco wouldn’t let her work. She talked about the problems with being with Dino. Being underneath him, having to serve him, serve his will. Ultimately, Nia did not want those kind of men in her life for more than one thing. She needed Geoff to change too. He was a nice guy with her from start to finish but the Geoff at the end of the book is a different Geoff. One who will control Nia. To sound trite: Nia has been disciplined.
And the blog is supportive, believe me. This is just what you guys see. I get e-mails from fans too, even if I didn’t come to this blog, my inbox is full of hopes and wishes on how the story turns out. They don’t sway me. The characters are the only ones that sway me. There are just as many people who e-mail only as there are who post here. To say that I bent to the will of the blog isn’t unbelievable but I think if you re-read the book you’ll see how things came to pass. This ending was the general direction from the very beginning. Nia has a life history of burning bridges. She didn’t want this bridge with Geoff burned. She wanted (and deserved IMO) reclamation and restoration. She’d burned bridges with Dino already. She lied to him about something terrible. She could never be with him. And Rocco? Nia could never stay with Rocco. I think that was demonstrated in the last book. Geoff was what she needed.
There is absolutely no way I can make everyone happy. It’s too sad, it’s too happy, why didn’t so and so do something, why did this guy blah blah. < I say this with great respect, just trying to be funny! I wrote for the characters. Their tragedies were covered in the black moment. The story doesn’t end with tragedy (yes, I know that means it’s not a tragedy) but this is a long book.
I said I wanted to talk about netorare but couldn’t earlier because it would tip the hat to the ending. This is why. I like netorare, I like the loss, but there is a certain misogynistic taint to it. It’s pure male fantasy. If I create realistic characters like Geoff and Nia it’s crazy to pull off some of the elements to netorare. Plus it would probably get me kicked off amazon. Netorare characters behave in cartoonish ways. The loss is there but there is a subjugation of the woman that you can’t do if she is a real thinking character with a written internal monologue. She is there solely as a device of torment for the male character, her actions senseless in order to provoke feelings in the male. I could perhaps do it if I did a one voice narration, the male only. Then he could witness and we wouldn’t have to understand the female’s point of view. I like to write stories that explore both sides because as I see them they are stories about couples. There is a magic to doing an only male only point of view because it heightens the bewilderment and someday I might do that. So I guess I put out a watery westernized netorare. But you have to know I do it with heart and passion and I don’t take any of this lightly. I can however be heartless too, so if my male character needs to murder his family and then himself I can do it. Tough to keep that sexy though :)
If you're having trouble finding your comments, there is a Load More Comments button you have to search for...
But I will start a new post here, and comments can continue on this one...
I will put a post here soon on my thoughts on my ending.
Sorry for the delay! Here is the post:
Literature, to me, is about character journeys. The people you see in the beginning of the book should be transformed in some way by the end. I don't think Nia should behave the same way at the end of the book as she does in the beginning. Nia is supposed to do a 180. And yet, Nia’s transformation is circular. It’s a practical 360. If you think my ending is contrived you were probably reading too fast. Read it again with some care. I believe it would have been far more unbelievable if Nia didn’t go back to Geoff. Their reunion isn’t a simple one. I left a lot of the badness unsaid. Purposely so it would appear as a happy ending. I wanted it to feel like that, but think some more on it. There is more to it than there might appear. There is hope in it, yes, and for that I apologize, ha ha.
Listen, Nia had missed that big-dick-pulse-pounding sex but it would be a little shallow to think that’s all she wants from life. In real life girls want more than that. The fling was what worked, that was fun, they even admit through internal discourse that her having sex with Dino and Rocco wasn’t bad, it was the lying and the infidelity from eight years ago. Plus, Nia knows this: macho guys with big dicks are fun for about six months but they come with a whole host of other problems. Nia didn’t get along with them when she was twenty. She’s going to get along with them now? She’d been sexualized at a young age to appreciate rough masculine men. She’s attracted to that. But she also likes her independence. Geoff let her be herself. Rocco wouldn’t let her work. She talked about the problems with being with Dino. Being underneath him, having to serve him, serve his will. Ultimately, Nia did not want those kind of men in her life for more than one thing. She needed Geoff to change too. He was a nice guy with her from start to finish but the Geoff at the end of the book is a different Geoff. One who will control Nia. To sound trite: Nia has been disciplined.
And the blog is supportive, believe me. This is just what you guys see. I get e-mails from fans too, even if I didn’t come to this blog, my inbox is full of hopes and wishes on how the story turns out. They don’t sway me. The characters are the only ones that sway me. There are just as many people who e-mail only as there are who post here. To say that I bent to the will of the blog isn’t unbelievable but I think if you re-read the book you’ll see how things came to pass. This ending was the general direction from the very beginning. Nia has a life history of burning bridges. She didn’t want this bridge with Geoff burned. She wanted (and deserved IMO) reclamation and restoration. She’d burned bridges with Dino already. She lied to him about something terrible. She could never be with him. And Rocco? Nia could never stay with Rocco. I think that was demonstrated in the last book. Geoff was what she needed.
There is absolutely no way I can make everyone happy. It’s too sad, it’s too happy, why didn’t so and so do something, why did this guy blah blah. < I say this with great respect, just trying to be funny! I wrote for the characters. Their tragedies were covered in the black moment. The story doesn’t end with tragedy (yes, I know that means it’s not a tragedy) but this is a long book.
I said I wanted to talk about netorare but couldn’t earlier because it would tip the hat to the ending. This is why. I like netorare, I like the loss, but there is a certain misogynistic taint to it. It’s pure male fantasy. If I create realistic characters like Geoff and Nia it’s crazy to pull off some of the elements to netorare. Plus it would probably get me kicked off amazon. Netorare characters behave in cartoonish ways. The loss is there but there is a subjugation of the woman that you can’t do if she is a real thinking character with a written internal monologue. She is there solely as a device of torment for the male character, her actions senseless in order to provoke feelings in the male. I could perhaps do it if I did a one voice narration, the male only. Then he could witness and we wouldn’t have to understand the female’s point of view. I like to write stories that explore both sides because as I see them they are stories about couples. There is a magic to doing an only male only point of view because it heightens the bewilderment and someday I might do that. So I guess I put out a watery westernized netorare. But you have to know I do it with heart and passion and I don’t take any of this lightly. I can however be heartless too, so if my male character needs to murder his family and then himself I can do it. Tough to keep that sexy though :)
I'm copying my original post in reply to PS' comments here. This is posted before KT wrote the content for this blog. Just in case it has any non-sequiturs.
ReplyDeletePS - I think this is how you should go about criticizing a writer! It gives deference to someone who everyone on here knows has done INCREDIBLE work, or if that doesn't please you, put an INCREDIBLE amount of effort to put this together. I disagree with your assessment though, and this as a person who kind of agrees that they wanted to see the tragedy you were hoping for. I think you could see that ending coming for a long ways. As far down the path as Nia was, she never lost sight of her love for Geoff, not in one scene. Personally, I wanted those scenes I mention to be evidence that Nia is clinging to her dying love of Geoff ... I think the ending shows that it never waned, we just needed a stronger Geoff to be willing to believe it from her. I'd love for KT to let us know when she knew Odie was actually Geoff's because maybe that should put that thought to rest, but even if it's last week (like her choice not to kill Rocco that she talks about above), I'm confident those were the best choices in her eyes, regardless of how the readers may have received it. Incidentally, KT writes above that she was toying with the "Rocco dying" ending that was going to lead Geoff and Nia (perhaps begrudingly) getting back together months ago, before anyone could have possibly influenced her ending. That was a happy-ish ending before opinions started being passionate from her readers.
I think you underestimate KT's ability to tune us out, and forum contributors' ability to adapt to whatever KT ultimately does. Yes she's said that she is inspired by her readers, but only to clarify, and to possibly entice/tease. I don't know, I'm not sure what she does with our input, but she's never given any indication that she reacts to our input to the point where she's influenced by it. She's already stated that she's going to write her stories the way she wants to, in the survey she wrote us however many months ago, she just wants to see how things are landing. Recall she said in that blog that she's concluded that people want her to just keep doing what she's doing. That should show you that her feedback amounted to her keeping the status quo that INCLUDES tragedies, because that was at a time where the only ending to any series was LHW1.
As for the posters, most of the HEA crowd has been here since LHW1, and so they've all seen what she's capable of. They hadn't gone anywhere then, and they won't now. She may even be convinced they secretly like the opposite of a HEA ending but won't admit it. Having a go right there, I have no idea what she knows or they think. None of these posters have even given her any indication of an ultimatum of their support based on a happy ending, so to think she even feels guilted into a happy ending isn't true, imo. Besides, you might be wrong that even a plurality of her readers want the kind of ending we got, she may have actually been taking a tougher stand giving us the happy ending we got.
Finally, is the ending that happy? KT has already weighed in on the concept that this was a happy ending above. She agrees, but to an extent, it's more nuanced, as is usual with KT. I personally have been able to take that grey area and insert some darkness, and she has not been willing to change that perspective, or perhaps better stated, doesn't care what I do with it. Because she doesn't care HOW we feel about it, just that we care. If that makes sense.
She'll continue to write whatever ending fits. "The endings are the endings" she says above, we'll see tragedies again when they arise. It feels like a coin toss to me, which keeps me more intrigued than knowing she'll always write bad endings.
Yep, I'm realizing now that I make a lot of references to what has been written in the last blog. Just let me know if anyone wants me to clarify any points that seem confusing because sorting through 240 posts to find what I'm talking about might be a bit much to expect.
Delete2B=2H--As one of the original HEA crowd, I both agree and disagree with the above post. Most important, as you say, is that KT does and should always write what she feels, and she is really good at it.
DeleteThat being said, one of the biggest problem with the hotwife genre in general is that many writers make it such an emotionally destructive experience for the reader. Not to say that everything should be sweet and rosy, that would be ludicrous. But to have the other end of the spectrum where everyone feels distraught and emotionally damaged at the end is not emotionally sustainable. In my opinion, it is somewhat Pavlovian, in that most people prefer to put a book download at the end and say, "Man, that was emotionally stretching, but I loved that uplifting ending.
I think that Bradley missed a very important style that KT employed in this series. First, she had characters that truly went through a metamorphosis from the beginning to the end. Second was the eternally successful idea of second chances, from movies like Hoosiers, Star Wars, It's a Wonderful Life and many others hav employed as an emotionally satisfying strategy. KT really executed that well in LHW2, and actually pretty damn well in LHW1 too.
But all of those require something positive to "stick the landing" (I know, tooting my own horn there, but it just seemed so right). KT really knocked it out other park. I personally took it as an obvious sign of her growth as a writer, although I am just a bit biased. But based on the increased blog postings and the insights I see, I think most of us would say KT continues to improve her craft (and from my point of view, her craftiness as well).
Bottom line, if KT can figure out how to be the first (and probably the only) author to smoothly incorporate her emotionally edgy style of character growth with really uplifting and/or HEA endings,she will likely draw in readers like iron filings to a strong magnet. Unfortunately, that will mean these blogs will get even more crazy with a lot more people involved. In another year, 2B=2H, you will probably be writing something like this to her next generation of readers.... While KT just keeps on going, like the Energizer bunny (now that is an interesting picture in my mind).
KT has already hinted that the ending is not as happy as we see. And on a reread I can see it. Both Nia and Geoff are terribly flawed people. But they have been consistent.
DeleteGeoff forgives, it's what he does. It took him the better part of a year because he had to figure out that it didn't matter that he might not be Odie's Biological father. Honestly I think Dino helped him more in this respect, maybe subconsciously, than he gets credit for. Or I could be projecting. Point is we had to see The turmoil of Geoff growing confidence for the end we have to even be possible.
Nia, at one point and one point only, wonders if she even knows what love is. Just before that I wondered the same thing, thinking Nia loved the idea of Geoff as opposed to the man. In the last book, as in the first book, Nia comes full circle. The angry, desirous, unresistable sex in the studio on the couch. In both instances we see Nia's lust for Geoff at its highest. But not just lust. it's here we see their love too.
Nia can be cruel and mean and spiteful... and she is with both Rocco and Dino. But the closest she gets to that with Geoff is criticizing his porn and lashing out after being beaten by Maria. She treats Geoff differently not because he's less of a man to her but because he means everything to her.
Over the course of Eternal and Universe we see her shifting opinion of Rocco as he truly comes into light for her and us. But think of that scene Rocco and Nia share in her apartment in Universe. They'd been drifting. She knows he's found another. But she isn't jealous. Think about Nia's reaction to the first Jenny kiss, and look again at the angry sex on the couch with Nia and Geoff (I still think Nia had jealousy there even if she knew she had no right to it), and ask if she really loved Rocco would she not have been acting more like jealous Nia than meek accepting Nia?
And for the record I think everyone is wrong. There IS a tragedy here. And it's Nia's. Nia went from a strong and capable woman to a scared and sad woman. Without a kick in the pants she'd never have been able to go after what she wants and needs. Without affirmation she never would have been able to go and put herself together. A far cry from the confident woman out to conquer a new job from the first book. I find that tragic. Oh she's by no means weak, just weakened.
I'll wait for KT to post her thoughts, but for me the ending is about how fantasies meet reality. Rocco was the perfect fantasy guy for Nia, and through the course of the story she begins to wonder if that fantasy could be real. But once she lives with him, she realizes the reality of guys like that doesn't live up to what she had with Geoff.
DeleteI sort of agree with what others said r.e. Nia's feelings for Geoff. I think she always loves him, and loves their life, but he doesn't quite check off all the boxes for what she perceived her fantasy man to be. But being without him, she sees what he does bring to the table is so much better. Reality better than the fantasy.
Geoff's growth is in learning to be confident in himself and what he offers. The Geoff in the first few chapters is not confident in his relationship, and at the same time way too dependent on it. By the end, he has learned to live again on his own, and also has the confidence in himself and his qualities. He chooses Nia because he wants to be with her, not because he needs to be with her.
So I personally see a lot of growth for both of them through the story. Doesn't mean they're perfect, or they won't make mistakes in the future. Also doesn't mean Nia's dark fantasies entirely go away. But I do buy she's learned her lesson on what she stands to lose, and has grown up to realize the fantasies are not worth risking her happiness again.
Also think its important to realize that while the ending is mostly happy and Geoff and Nia are back together, they still lose a lot through the course of the story and their actions.
DeleteThey missed 14 months of their life together, 14 months of raising their daughter together, and going through all her good and bad times. That's time they'll never get back. They had to sell a house they loved, which held many happy memories and that their daughter grew up in. And they uprooted the life of their daughter, who will still probably have questions when she gets older about exactly what happened.
So I wouldn't say they didn't experience any tragedies here, even if they do live happily ever after now.
Yes. All that, too. And also, trust. Maybe Geoff is a better man than I, but I'd have trouble trusting Nia, oh the DNA tests will help since she ALWAYS insisted Odie was his, but I can see the potential for other trust issues.
DeleteI'll admit to being a HEA guy...especially when I really fall in love with the characters. And with KT's stories I generally do. After reading 8 books, you want the best for Geoff, Nia and Odie (at least I do). So I was rooting for a happy ending, but I didn't have any expectations on what it should be.
DeleteI certainly wasn't insistent it should definitely end up with them together. I'm happy it did, but if KT chose a different path I wouldn't have had an issue with it, nor would I have stopped reading her stories.
I do think what the ending we got fits very well with the story as it progressed, and the growth of the characters. That's really the only thing that concerns me.
@Guhrka - when you say you get the feeling that “many writers” make hotwifing stories an emotionally destructive experience, are you saying that most stories in this genre don’t have a happy ending? It must be where the other perceives these stories, because I see it as the opposite. More authors seem to be unwilling to write a bad ending story. That’s fine if you’re into that, but if you’re like me, and want to read a story prepared to accept whatever direction an author goes with it, knowing that a story will end with a happy-ish feeling at the end gets old. Was there a time when you could see Nia leaving Geoff for Rocco? If you think yes to that, then know that it keeps me on the edge of my seat reading this story knowing that that situation COULD have happened.
DeleteAre you implying at the end that you think KT’s success is based on her ability to master her emotional edginess and happy-ish endings? I think she can have the first part only and be just as successful. But so I’m clear on that, I don’t think it’s possible for a story to maintain emotional edginess if a person is completely numb with negativity. So I think a story needs to be somewhat positive in order for any angsty, jealous, loss feelings to stick. Otherwise it will mostly be hated. Contrast is crucial, so you have a range of feelings, a sympathetic and parasympathetic reaction to it. I had to know that Geoff and Nia truly loved each other, to feel that positive energy, in order for the potential loss of Nia to Rocco or Dino to feel at all palatable.
@Edwin - I agree there could be tragedy in this story, IF no one learns from their mistakes. You could conceivably come away from this story feeling that way like you may have, thinking Nia is a broken woman or weakened, or that she could find herself in a place where want to cheat again (which is a thought I had mentioned in a previous comment). It’s also possible that you come away from this story thinking that the worst is past them and that they have a new beginning that they can build from. I tend to land on that side, but the pain of the past for those two is too close to the immediate present to feel totally comfortable with that belief. I like stories where people learn from their mistakes and overcome adversity, regardless of how low it may have left them, and I think this book series fits that mold.
@JL - your fantasy/reality dichotomy played through my mind throughout the entire series. I’ve mentioned it in numerous posts, I think it may be the biggest theme of the entire series. Interesting point about the loss of family time together during this saga, but for me it’s about the end result (I think you agree too), they’re together again prepared to make it work.
I think the general consensus is that the characters grew a lot, I agree with that being the most critical piece to this story.
I've spent a while contemplating on a response to this thread, since I have more than just a great respect for the intense reading of every book that all of you have shown a great knowledge of the detail.
DeleteThat being said, none of us can really know how deep the epiphany (I know, but couldn't resist using that word) was that Nia and Geoff each had. Both had drastically changed since the beginning of the series, but both also decided to give their relationship and love a second chance (by the way Second Chances would also have made a great title). As readers, we have no way of discerning how deep or long lasting it was, and I think KT would probably answer that question with something like "I truly hope so".
I tend to try to support people who want and need second chances, and try to help them set up safeguards against backsliding into dangerous behaviors. Actually both Nia and Geoff now have a pretty deep support group around them that likely will give them a good chance of success, if the epiphany was deep enough. Nia words were pretty strongly worded when she talked about how she felt after she saw the light, describing him as the bravest and most loving man she'd ever known.
At the end of the day, we are only spectators in this play about life. KT is the only Omniscient being relative to these characters.
I Truly Hope So....
One thing I want to say is I hope I'm characterizing people's views like the 'HEA crowd' with you Guhrka decently. I tried to make sure people knew that I am not speaking as if I know everything they, or we all think. I just want to say that because I hate it when people speak on behalf of a group without respecting their nuances.
DeleteI was just trying to speak to this idea that we somehow lobbied for the ending we received.
Edwin brought up Nia being "weakened" by the end...I wouldn't put it quite that way, I would say more like humbled. And I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing from where she started.
DeleteBut it does lead me to ask: is Nia now too much like Geoff was at the start?...does she derive too much of her worth as a person by Geoff's love for her? That wouldn't exactly be healthy either, it would be no better for Nia to put Geoff on a pedestal now. I don't think she does, but I can't say for sure from where we end.
And I guess that's the point, for all of us arguing over the level of "happiness" to the ending. We are only seeing the moment of reconciliation, there will still be landmines for them to avoid in their future. So I think a reader can imagine any type of future for them from this point, both good or bad. I think its entirely up to you, and I enjoy that being the case.
2B=2H- Sorry I didn't answer your questions in my last post. I had included my specific thoughts, but they made the post too long, and then I needed to go pick up a pizza in town for dinner.
DeleteI believe that KT does two things better than anyone I have read in the hotwife genre: First, what I call her "edginess" in the plot creation and execution. The blog comments from most of us show some level of agreement with my statement, I think. The plot execution sets a fast pace and the emotional rollercoaster is as good as it gets. Second, KT really does a standout job of developing/changing the characters throughout the series. I think that is what I believe leads to the emotional attachment and strong feelings we all have about each of them.
Another point I would make is that KT'S writing execution and appeal have really taken off, although she may not notice it as much as we do. I thought LHW1 was really good, but LHW2 improved in ways I never expected, and would have a hard time describing.
However, as I said two postings above, if she can figure out how to combine the skills that already set her apart and add some new skills that might appeal to a whole new genre like "explicit" Romance novels, she will also get a large increase in readers. She has shown that she can do explicit steamy sex scenes that can curl your eyebrows, but so do others in that genre. Most of the stories don't have the plot edginess/excitement she excels at, so she will likely gain an edge there. However, most of the writers with the 5 star ratings do positive or HEA endings.
But the reader numbers dwarf the hotwife genre. If want proof, go look at how many readers leave ratings Penny Wylder's books.
One last thing about darker endings... I think they are a lot tougher on the authors, particularly ones like KT who really become the characters she writes about (her words,not mine). As a person, I hate to see her go through their pain, and think it would be easier if she knew the outcome was worth the pain for that character. I tried to explain that in my earlier post as to readers generally seeking a positive outcome as opposed to a negative one by referring to it as almost Pavlovian. I am speaking for myself specially, but I do feel better when a story ends on a positive note.
That kind of reminds me of a line in the movie, "Starman" from the 80's. The alien visitor from another galaxy was talking to a man trying to help him get back to his spaceship to get back to his home planet. The line was, "Humans are unique species in the Universe, and there are many... You are at your very best when things are at the absolute worst".
While I doubt KT was thinking of that line when she chose the title for the last book, it made me smile.... I like to think of the times in my own life when I've seen the truth in that statement from Starman.
Have a good weekend.
ToBe- perhaps weakened was a poor word choice. Humbled didnt seem strong enough from my perspective. Throughout the books Nia was a force of nature.now while she likes being dominated by strong manly men, but she gives as good as she gets. I call this extreme flirtation/sex. Either way, by the end Nia is much more demure, hesitant, and uncertain. Humbled works, she has A LOT to lose. It still seems inadequate to me though. Flawed as she was Nia still seemed like a strong female lead to me. By the end not so much. Cracked but not broken maybe?
DeleteGurka- Starman is one of my favorite movies.
Delete@Guhrka - I shouldn't have disagreed that she would still be "successful" in situations where she didn't leave us feeling happy and sunshiny at the end. I might have meant more successful in terms of the impact of her stories, but there's no question that the majority of readers want a happy ending. To argue against it would be ridiculous.
Delete@Edwin - I would not argue about how to describe Nia at the end, she definitely experienced a lot of humbling/weakening/breaking, what have you. What I was trying to say though is that from that feeling, I think she can return to her previously strong form (which I think peaked in Kaleidoscope or Sanctity maybe) now that the worst is over. If she learns from this experience, it isn't a tragedy. If she feels broken and dependent on Geoff forever more, then I agree, it's a tragedy.
I can build a case for both, but I choose to believe the former.
@ToBe - I hope for the former as well. I mean she's strong enough to initiate the meeting, she's strong enough to find hope. She's by no means a weak woman. The question is can she fight her Nature? As long as Geoff keeps WOWing her, I think so. But I stand by what I said, her humbling is a tragedy in it's own way, regardless of her personal discovery and whether she learns from it, as it took power from her. Nothing says she can't get that power back, but the question is, will she? That, of course, is the beauty of the ambiguous ending. We can each imagine what we want. But as the ending stands on it's own? I still see her as less powerful.
DeleteWe can all infer different outcomes based on the characters as written, real life, our own experiences, psychology, biology, and whatever else we want to cite. The truth is there is soooo much more that goes on in what makes people who and what they are. Maybe I'm not taking into account the strength she shows in finally opening the results. Maybe I'm not taking into account the strength she shows going to the island. Maybe, maybe.
Edwin- I see Nia’s strength in getting those test results and being able to learn the truth about Odie, knowing that she could potentially have to live forever with that news and the likely end of her marriage if it went the wrong way. In this sense, she shows more strength than Geoff, who can’t face knowing the truth (he deals with it by just convincing himself the worse is true- but that to me is no less a copout than not finding out for sure).
DeleteI don’t think she needed strength to go to the island; by that point she knows the good news, and there is no fear of sharing it with Geoff, rather she is excited to tell him, and at the very least ease his pain and in the best case win him back.
In terms of her power at the beginning, I guess I see it as power at a very superficial level. It’s in her confidence to attract men, to get what she wants through her beauty and charm. But those guys don’t really respect her as a woman; certainly not Rocco, who it’s clear has a very 1950’s perspective on relationships: the man goes out and does the work and earns the money, and the woman stays home and raises the family. BTW, while Nia does have an attraction to this type of mindset, in the long run it’s another reason why it wouldn’t work with Rocco; she would begin to resent it after a period of time.
By the end, she’s learned what it feels like to lose things she loved. She realizes she can’t just rely on her beauty and charm to get what she wants, and that some things are not worth risking in a futile attempt to have it all. She learns what she really wants in life, what she really needs. For me, it does take strength to go through all of that and make those connections.
Now, that doesn’t mean she can’t backtrack, people forget lessons like this all the time and regress. But for this moment at least, I personally see Nia as stronger than when we met her at the beginning of the story.
Perhaps I should be clearer. I'm not talking about Nia's sexuality. I'm talking one simple piece of the puzzle that is Nia. In the big inning she was empowering herself by getting out into the job force. She had a goal. Yes she chose the wrong employer. But she succeeded in a way. Now, by the end of the series she's right back where she started but instead of trying to work she's, from my perspective, looking for Geoff to nurture her. Not saying she won't still work, in fact KT points out she's doing odd jobs, but she's still taken a step backward as far as being a career woman. Now I know it doesn't say she stays that way. Think on this, the job aspect of Nia was the ONLY place where Geoff didn't encourage her (out of selfishness?) while he did encourage her to hotwife. Nia is consistent throughout the series in needing to be propped up to take action in everything else, be it by Geoff or, as I believe the case is with getting Geoff back, by her friends. But not with work. To me it looks like, and again it doesn't mean it stays that way, that she's taken a step back from self empowerment. I still think she wouldnt be on the island if she didn't have Angie and the rest propping her up, regardless of the test results. But the getting out and getting a career, that was all her and now it seems lost and that is tragic to me. Added all together with her hesitation and demurring... it's just my take.
DeleteSigh... I should stop posting from my phone... it should be "I'm not just talking about Nia's sexuality." And "In the beginning..."
DeleteYou make a good point about Geoff; he didn't really want her to return to work. I think it came from his own insecurities in the relationship, not about her making her own money (and maybe making more than him), but in her being out there interacting with guys like Rocco.
DeleteBut I would think now he's in a better place. If Nia wanted to go back to work I don't think he'd stand in her way; he'd want her to do it. And I think she would at some point; plus we see she is able to build a little part time business for herself after leaving Rocco. So to me that still shows initiative on her part.
How would Geoff react if a new job put her in contact with alphas like Rocco again? Well, that's where the ambiguity of the ending comes in...I think they're in a better place to deal with it, but you don't know until you're faced with it.
KT - can you give us some hints to your other LHW1 callbacks?
ReplyDeleteI think the other ones are unsolvable, so I'll just reveal them.
Delete1. Odie's teacher was Miss Jessop
2. (this was a doozy) Geoff's dog's name is Pippet, the name of the dog that disappears in the movie Jaws. At the end of LHW1 Jess and Tyler are on the beach and Jess is troubled that Tyler, being so young she figures, has never seen Jaws. That was a weird one I know, but done on purpose.
There might be others, but I seem to have forgotten them!
Dude ... that's way too meta
DeleteOk.. I'm with ToBe... too meta. :p
DeleteI had a weird feeling the dog at the end was a reference somehow, but I never would have gotten what it actually turned out to be. If anyone had figured that out, it would be like finding a 10 pound chunk of quartz in a stream.
DeletePippet: Geoff's animal familiar. His wisdom. Got that one blue eye, its knowing eye locked on Nia. Wounded like Geoff. Shot by a hunter. Circles him, protects him...
DeleteBTW...do hunters really do that, just shoot the dog when they're finished? That's real shitty...
DeleteOkay, this is a lot to sift through. I've read some of it and will finish off the remainder later today. First, however, I want to set one thing straight. At no time was I impugning KT's commitment to the integrity of her story. I simply am aware of the power of the subconscious mind. It often directs us without our even knowing it. A good example of this occurs when a jury is sequestered during a trial. It's human nature to form judgments and alter intention in the face of input from other people or sources.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I like happily-ever-after stories, too. One of my favorite authors in the HEA-hotwife genre is Kenny Wright. I've read just about every one of his books. However, I reached a point where I just couldn't swallow how neat and tidy things ended up after the wife went on a spree of debauchery and the husband through a gut-wrenching trial of mixed feelings. I needed something grittier and more realistic. That's when KT's title for the Pete and Jess Mapplethorpe chronicles caught my eye.
I realize that the Mapplethorpe couple also had a rapprochement, but Jess was a very different character than Nia; at least, to me she was. Both women needed psychiatric care - as did their husbands - but Jess engaged in much more gratuitous cruelty towards her husband than Nia. Had things not gone so far south for Jess, I don't believe she would have spit on Pete if his hair were on fire. Jess is someone who is either at your feet or at your throat. My impression of the final scene in LHW-1 was of a Black Widow spider patiently biding her time until she could strike and devour the fly (Pete).
Thanks everyone for sharing your views and showing tolerance towards mine. I'll check back in later.
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DeletePS - I understand where you're coming from, and there's no question that it's possible that the comments that we left over the course of the story had an effect on the content. She has already said as much. To what extent we don't know. It's difficult to counter that her fans writing about her story to her could have subconsciously effected her writing as I'm sure you're aware. So it's also difficult to claim that it hasn't, but I have some evidence that should help indicate that comments weren't effecting her ending. It's basically a summary of what I wrote first above:
Delete1) The ending isn't that happy
2) She wrote out a particular ending that was happy-ish months before her fans could hold an opinion on it. The results were the same as the one she wrote, but the journey to it was different.
3) Most of the HEA crowd that could have possibly lobbied for a happy ending have been here when the endings weren't so rosy (i.e. LHW1). They're still here. None of them pushed for a happy ending. Not that it matters anyways.
4) It's arguable that much of her fanbase is comprised of people who want more "realistic" or "dramatic" endings than you give credit for. Afterall, I believe you and I fall into that camp (although you and I both appreciate happy endings too, to be clear). There must be others. Either way she might be letting her fans down writing the ending the way she did. So that can't be a factor in my opinion, to determining her ending.
5) Feedback she's received when she wanted a full evaluation of what she does left her concluding, don't change. Jess and Pete's story is part of her reputation at that point.
6) It is very understandable how the ending of this story happened based on how everything played out in already released parts.
This last part I want to expand upon, because I think it's important to your point about why you picked up her books to begin with. Nia and Geoff were never Jess and Pete. Nia had a stronger hold on her sexuality than Jess, and never lost sight of her love or respect for her husband as she she went down this road. Geoff is certainly no Pete. Geoff has a stronger will and mind, is just a more well-rounded and better looking guy, stood up for himself better (at least put across his negative feelings to what was happening better), and, in my opinion, had more potential from the beginning than Pete. A potential that he realized at the end of the story, so his progression made sense to me. These differences are critical, because if you thought the ending fell flat, personally I felt like the ending made sense because of what had been brewing to that point. Basically, you could see her ending happening from the beginning of the story and throughout.
Finally, I'll say this. I mention how I agree above, in a comment directed to Guhrka that I think that HEA endings are played out and I want something more. Mostly, I want to know that I can expect the unexpected at the end, good or bad. LHW1 was not an all together bad ending (Pete's last stand), but it wasn't rosy, we all agree on that. Part of what will keep my appeal to KT's work is that now I know that she writes stories with a happy twist too. If all she ever did was leave us a little more empty than happy, that would get boring too, in my opinion, because we know that the bull gets the girl in the end. Maybe you don't agree because you're pulling from a pool of Hotwife writers, like me, who mostly end happily. I get that.
I just like the unpredictability, but above all, how natural the ending feels. The tragedy of Pete and Jess made sense. The revival of Geoff and Nia made sense. Neither of those ended, in my opinion, the way they did because KT had a plan to write a story that ended the way they did, but because the ending made sense to her. That comes across to me, and is the way I want her to do until she stops writing.
Maybe we should be asking KT to start with a more nefarious premise? :)
I hear what you're saying, 2B=2H, and I fully agree with your assessment regarding the differences between the two couples. Nia and Geoff had indeed retained enough respect and affection for each other for a second try to be plausible. However, given Nia's deep psychological and sexual need for a hard-charging alpha male, I just didn't see her doing such an abrupt about-face just because her husband had moved on.
DeleteI'd like to emphasize that I didn't want a heart-rending tragedy to end this saga, though I would have accepted such a denouement as realistic and fitting. A more believable ending could have seen Nia and Geoff as friends and parents only. The tragedy would have been the irretrievable loss of their intimate relationship as husband and wife, both of whom would feel the concurrent pain.
I totally agree that the bull gets the girl in the end. That's just reality, and I don't believe it is any negative reflection on women. I don't want to get into religion here, but I'm a proponent of evolution through natural selection to account for the descent of man.
Long before we settled into cities and set up governments, it was the alpha males whom the group depended on for protection and hunting skills. For women to survive and propagate their genetic line, they had every motivation to go for a Stone Age "bad boy." Similarly, men were looking for a woman with attractive feminine attributes, as they were best equipped to provide him with strong, healthy children to carry on his line.
So, it's all a matter of science, as unromantic and cold as that sounds. We're the most advanced species on the planet, but we are still apes. Our primitive brains are not asleep; they are busy and forever meddling in our choices. I don't vilify either gender for following the dictates of biology that is millions of years old.
I'm cool with an author changing things up, but I believe that the trajectory of a story should not suddenly change course, especially near the end. Many have said that the ending in LHW-2 was not necessarily a happy one, but the outlook appeared pretty bright to me. I got every impression that Nia had turned over a new leaf and that Geoff had done a bit of growing and maturing. Also, with a second child on the way, their bond is only likely to get stronger.
Sorry guys for my absence but I've had a busy few days. I have a file I'm working on for this post and it will be done soon, I just wanted to jump in here really quick and drill down on this one point before it might get lost.
DeleteI wholeheartedly agree with PS on this matter. But I feel it's more intricate than blunt. Part of the transitory nature of love that the book talks about. Women's lust for alpha males is also transitory. (My post really talks about this). A woman will have lust for an alpha male but it travels in cycles. She is more receptive to this kind of male in different times of the month. I believe girls, strongly believe, can get real tired of big dick sex and macho bravado. It doesn't end in the bedroom, it pervades everything. Nia talks about through internal discourse why she wasn't with Dino. She was below him in the relationship. Alphas come with other problems. There is more than that to being a man. I think, since PS wants to get primitive (where I also exist) those same males have a lot more seed to spread. They're biologically driven to scatter that top shelf DNA all over the planet in as many wombs as possible. These women get knocked up, then they're no good for nine months, they would think. Hard chargers are sometimes difficult to live with. Women aren't driven sexually 100% of the time, only in brief periods. Ha ha, maybe this story's ending suits you more than you think! Nia is entering a nurturing phase and she needs on a primitive level a man like Geoff to raise her babies. Her lust may rise again! I wouldn't argue that. To me, this ending is not as cut and dried and sweet as a lot of people seem to think. It's somewhere in the middle. The pot on the stove is boiling--possibilities, not truths. they have a family that needs to be raised and this is the man she needs right now...
I'll be ack soon. Thanks everyone for posting here, I read everything but I have little time this weekend. And thanks 2B2H for the review on the final box set. That's the first time I've seen a book publish with a review attached. It just received it's ASIN number and you already left a review. How'd you even know I was publishing that!! Ha, thanks again...
KT--Thanks for your insights. Sometimes I think we (certainly me anyway), get too involved in analyzing things at levels that are too microscopic and miss the higher level message.
DeleteKeep up the great writing.
KT---thanks as always for giving us some peeks behind the curtain. Look forward to reading the next story.
DeletePS---again wanted to let you know I understand and appreciate your thoughts, and where you were coming from on your concerns. It was just from what I could see there wasn't a specific path the commenters here had; I think we all had slightly different ideas and thoughts. So I still don't think anything was changed, consciously or subconsciously, to fit a particular view. Just my opinion of course.
On the biological need, I think there's no doubt that exists on a primal level in humans, even today. And like I said, I think the ending is happy at this moment in time, who knows what happens in 5-10 years. I do see lessons learned by both of them, but that doesn't mean there's any guarantees they stay together. After all, Nia was a "good girl" for nearly 8 years after Dino, you never know what can happen in the future.
Same with Geoff, how does his newfound "alpha"-like confidence, and the knowledge he is attractive and desirable, impact him. But I see them raising their kids in happiness for the foreseeable future, because that's what I want to see.
A little more on the biology front. I think it goes to PS's idea that the alphas typically get the girl, at least in terms of breeding.
DeleteI agree that Nia wants Geoff to be the "nurturer" for all her babies...but I also think many of us have come to the thought that Nia, whether she realized it fully or not, wanted to become pregnant by Geoff, so she set it up in a way to increase those chances at their old house.
So in that case, she was actively seeking not to breed with an "alpha"...or did the fact that she may have come to fear that Odie was actually Dino's lead her to desire her next baby to be Geoff's...to "spread" the genetics and even the score, so to speak.
I hate to speak so primitively about such things, but I think it makes for interesting thought. I don't believe anyone thinks consciously like this, but like I said I wonder how much this plays in what many people call our "reptilian" minds.
Primitive, low brain thinking is unavoidable. But Nia is more than just a fuck machine, looking to breed with studs. That's in her...deep down, that idea feels so good. In reality, which as a fully-functioning member of society and an otherwise smart woman, would naturally not want to have a baby with a married man like Dino. Possibly Rocco. He was separating. I think when she went off her pill...ah, this is conjecture.
DeleteNia is real to me. This primitive stuff I talk about is ingrained in me and my characters, but its a base layer. there is so much more to consider, society, culture, morality, slave morality especially, decncy, protocol. there's so much more that shapes out behaviour and it can contradcit what our reproduction based hormones tell us to do. I believ in what PS is saying but I think there is another evolution going on in society where happiness is pursued as well as biological drive. Sometimes they conflict. Ultimately there is also a higher mind and it sometimes just wants to be happy and it looks out over top of all the base impulses. Man, this conversation is getting weird...
KT, just a quick request. Do you think you could you list some books that maybe influenced your views on morality and evolution, if any. I think you just referenced Nietzsche for instance. What you are talking about is really up my alley.
DeleteYeah, it's getting a little weird, but still interesting. I threw out the stuff about Nia with Geoff just to illustrate the theory that women aren't always pulled to breed with "alpha" guys.
DeleteI do see what PS is saying to a point, but I also agree with KT, I think our views have evolved, and I would go a little further to say they have impacted both our conscious and subconscious ideas of what makes the best mate.
There is still that primitive mind in us (that seeks the "strongest" genetic material to mate with), but I do believe we also take into account other factors and qualities we want our offspring to possess.
I think Nia sees that as well, the good things she sees in her daughter are nearly all qualities she believes Geoff passed on to her, and they are qualities I think she wants all her children to have. In my mind, that's why I think she did what she did, but who knows for sure.
OK, as I'm not an expert in evolution I'll bow out of this conversation now.
Genealogy of Morals, yes. And...
DeleteHegel's Phenomenology of Spirit
Beckett's Proust essay (Courtney quotes it in Obsessed)
William Blake, Marriage of Heaven and Hell
and for the biology and evolution I like Chris Ryan's Sex at Dawn. For its ideas--I like the idea that fidelity is a modern misogynistic concept, like marriage which was just meant to preserve bloodlines so land could be passed from son to son with relative surety that it was your blood that was getting it not another man's. Sex at Dawn describes a primitive society unconcerned about paternity.
I have a lot of reading to do. Thank you!
DeleteNP! Hegel is boring and you'd be better off reading interpretations. Blake is always fun. Proust is dry. You'd have more fun reading other Beckett. And if you wanted to circumscribe all this, get the gyst and have a good time, read Aleister Crowley...
DeleteI was going to say... "What about Crowley?" But you beat me to it, KT.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteRe posted and edited because autocorrect amused me but not so much when it alters my point...
DeleteAnd I think this conversation is great. I've always been interested in the biological imperative versus the moral constraints debate. Higher thought and subconscious influences from our environment and upbringing, versus that need to find a healthy mate to breed. The curse of the higher functioning brain... looking at this story I can see it playing out.
Reason would dictate that the constraints we put on ourselves are what has allowed society to develope in any meaningful way. They are one of the few things that set us apart. But we are not lovebirds who mate for life. At least we were not before it was ingrained into us. But even before marriage was institutionalized we did tend to pick a mate and keep that mate until death, of course humans were living shorter lives at that time.
I must say, I continue to be amazed at the content of this blog. We go from a conversation that one might hear in a senior level Creative Literature class to a mix of Philosophy and Evolutionary Biology class.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I think it is very difficult to try to characterize any person's motives as being based on the animal part of the brain vs. the more rational part, there is just too much variability and convoluting factors for each individual.
However, we are dealing with a special case when we discuss KT's characters. Since she created them and allowed them to grow and change under her care, we should all bow to her Omniscient view of what drives them on a philosophical level. She has always sought our feedback, and probably uses that to refine and focus the image at times, but she has all the strings in her hands.
KT- Have you considered charging to get college course credit for this blog?
One thing tonight. The thing that I kept my eye on the entire time of this story. From an evolutionary perspective that has painted my view of these stories from the beginning. We know what kind of man Rocco turned out to be, but at one point, Nia saw him as everything. It wasn't just a matter of Nia succumbing to her base parts for him, but that she was confused because he seemed to start to hit at every part. You could argue, the 'Higher' parts of her mind.
DeleteAfterall, he ran his own business, had a six-figure salary, he mastered tons of construction equipment, fixed things, hunted, etc., solved problems, won arguments, had an extremely impressive cottage, a houseboat.
He made her laugh on the plane in Montreal, the kind of laughter shared by people who think alike, they had all kinds of light banter, he even demonstrated a glimmer of compassionate love. Which he completely destroyed of course. Overall, the personality/emotional element of Rocco never really stuck as a component that would help meet Nia's perfect man, but it did for a second.
So, the thing that was always important for my reading, is did Rocco or Dino start checking off those items on the list that raised her desire for them above the level of meat.
Like it or not, Rocco met qualities of the perfect man. Still, at one point, it could have been argued that it was almost a rational decision for Nia to leave Geoff for Rocco for the long-term. That is before the facade was lifted and he became nothing more than a brute with money, who, oh yeah, had his own family, and oh yeah so do I, etc.
I'm not going into a moralistic argument of right and wrong action here, I just wanted to share my thoughts.
ToBe- you inspired to come up with an analogy of Rocco vs. Geoff, using fruit and vegetables!
DeleteRocco looks appealing on the outside (to Nia), looks perfect even, but once you peel inside there's precious little of depth or substance. So in honor of his Italian roots, Rocco is an artichoke. They look so pretty, but 90% of it is inedible.
You could use a lot for Geoff...the guy whose true gifts are hidden from sight, but once you find them they provide great nourishment. I'll go with a pomegranate, they look kind of strange, but boy do they taste good (and super healthy for you).
I'm not wedded to those, so free reign to anyone who can come up something better... :)
Hmm, I think it would be about how many and what types of vegetables and fruits comprise a salad.
DeleteI'll just stick with fruits. Lets say the perfect fruit salad you have in mind has strawberries, bananas, and oranges. Each fruit is a component of love, sexual chemistry, income, and charisma lets say. Nia thought Rocco had all those.
Geoff at one time was like gooseberries, grapefruits, and kumquats.
Bland sexually, steady, regular but nothing spectacular with income, and his confidence was entirely unappealing.
Fuck kumquats is what I'm saying I guess.
Well, this is why I like these stories under the NTR umbrella - they get people thinking. Straight pornography is two-dimensional and thoroughly forgettable. What sets erotica apart is the three-dimensional quality of the characters as well as a plot that infuses them with purpose and intent.
ReplyDeleteI realize that my views may seem overly simplistic, but I was speaking of what separates men from being forever placed in the 'friend zone' to what makes them candidates for intimacy and commitment. An alpha male is much more than a strong man who can kick ass. He must also show confidence, self-control, initiative, and basic decency. Another critical element is a sense of humor. As Christopher Hitchens once said, if a man is unable to make a woman laugh, he's not getting laid.
Dino had the potential to be that type of alpha for Nia, but his familial obligations prevented him from being there for her. Also, Dino had his own demons, though they were clearly less pronounced than Rocco's.
I will concede the point that Nia could be in a "nurturing phase" at the moment. It's not at all unlikely that she could revert back to being Wildcat Nia and be seduced by a hairy linebacker. My impression, for what it's worth, is that her love and esteem for Geoff never wavered to a significant degree. I got the feeling that she desperately needed his physical and emotional presence to survive. All things considered, Geoff accepted her for who she was, warts and all, and that acceptance meant a great deal to her. It was her bulwark in a dangerous and uncertain world.
Having said that, I wonder if Nia was "in love" with Geoff. He was clearly worthy of her esteem and affection, but perhaps her feelings existed more in the form of how she would feel towards a trusted sibling. I'd be interested in hearing other peoples' views on this interpretation.
@PS- "I wonder if Nia was "in love" with Geoff..."
DeleteI had the same concern during Eternal when I wondered if Nia loved Geoff or the idea of Geoff. Until that scene where Geoff leaves the boat. No one reacts that viscerally unless they are losing something they care about, nay love. But, after doing a series reread, I see that I was wrong. There is just too much evidence showing her feelings for the man.
And this new Geoff? I think he will excite her like he never has before. And vice versa, once Geoff knows for certain the kids are all his, my guess is he will lose any hang ups he had. KT has already said she sees Nia as being much more devoted to Geoff and Odie. And she would know. I look forward to her input.
But, Nia may have seen Geoff as more brotherly. I can see that. The best friend angle was played up heavily and sibling love isn't really much of a step beyond that. But she does desire Geoff physically too. At least 4 times in the books she shows it. I'll always wonder about the depth of Nia's love and how genuine it is, but I'm sure it's there now.
I agree with Edwin...she clearly shows sexual desire for Geoff on multiple occasions, even before this final chapter, so that to me rules out that she just loves Geoff like a "brother."
DeleteI think they had settled into a somewhat comfortable love for each other early on in the story...but the passion they both had for each other was always just under the surface.
Here's a question. Does anyone think it's possible Nia subconsciously sensed Geoff's inner Alpha since "really noticing him for the first time" all those years ago?
DeleteIn a way, yes, and Jenny and Krista see it as well I think. But it's a different kind of alpha, if you want to call it that...not dripping in testosterone.
DeleteGeoff is in many ways what a lot of women would dream as the perfect man. Blond hair, attractive, creative, dresses stylishly...is a loving father and husband. With his added confidence, I see him as the ideal "alpha" for someone like Krista.
And a guy like Rocco wouldn't be; the way he's described, I don't think a woman like Krista would be remotely interested in him, even on a primal level. He just happens to be Nia's kind of alpha.
I'm not sure if it's how you asked it PS, how you think, or just how I interpreted the question, but I feel the need to answer this as if it's a philosophical question, like "what is love?" I am by no means an expert so I will barely answer that in any deep way, and at this point my perspective on how love applies in this story has been colored too much by KT's commentary to pretend that my take is all that unique. But whatever, here's my thoughts.
DeleteBasically, I think there is no question at all that Nia has all the love in the world for Geoff, but I think we learned from the "Temporal" natural of their relationship, that their love's intensity ebbs and flows. Here's the philosophical part, maybe love always will. That makes sense to me, marriages are like this right? I'm not married so I can't pretend to know from personal experience, but that's the word on the street, lol. Does it mean that on the 'ebb' part of the continuum that Nia DOESN'T love Geoff, no, I think she demonstrated throughout that she always will, but I think what's interesting here is we see Nia had a conduit where she could cast her net to others who might fill a void left by Geoff's deficiencies, perceived or otherwise.
On the same token (again colored by commentary already stated so I'm don't think I'm saying anything different really), Nia's love for Rocco will wax and wane too if it lasted. Nia entering the 'Nurturing' phase of her life is the catalyst mentioned that changes her perspective, etc. Ultimately, I think there are any number of factors that change how someone truly feels about someone they love in any particular moment, the added sum of which usually still lands on "oh, but I still love ya!"
I guess the question I ask myself is, does she love Geoff 'enough' not to be motivated into action at times when she starts to feel those familiar desires again. Nia has had incredible, emotionally intense, completely out of her mind sex in her life, and not with her husband. You don't have that unless you feel really strongly about the experience and it's clear it has to a lot to do with the men in it. That's addicting. Going without it would be almost like getting that Ferrari Rocco said he would get her, you still have to drive the speed limit, babe! My loaming fear is that Nia's preference for Mediterranean meatheads could be a deeper ingrained psychological bias (kind of like what JL alludes to in passing in his last comment).
I ascribe to the new and improved Geoff theory being tossed around. I think there's enough from this story to think she's learned her lesson, and may not ever want it again, and maybe even without the improved Geoff.
I meant to call back the 'transitory' nature of love above, not 'temporal.'
DeleteTemporal works just as well as transitory with nearly the same meaning so I don't think your point was lost. And I'm finding it difficult to disagree. Real love endures though, even through the worst of trials.
Delete@JL23 that's a funny thought!
DeleteKrista would be disgusted by Rocco. Dino could get in her pants for sure. One night stand only. Not smart enough for more than that.
Jenny would be afraid of Rocco. Same for Dino. Dino could get in her pants but at the zero hour Jenny would bail, chicken out, talk herself out of it.
Jenny and Krista are members of Geoff's world. Nia isn't.
Rocco and Dino are of Nia's world. Geoff isn't.
Their pairing is unexpected. That inner alpha claimed Nia somehow and she ruined him. He loves her to bits but he's been damaged by her.
Now he's trapped on an island with her, a prisoner of his own love. He'll be happy, but she's left him wounded.
Geoff in NYC with Krista is your happy ending. Krista, or one of her ilk, is the woman for Geoff. And he can land them too...
@PS Sense of humour: so subjective. Haven't you seen some meathead make a girl laugh, every other guy in the room looking at each other thinking WTF? That wasn't funny. A girl will think a guy has a sense of humour but she's just smitten, looking into his dazzling eyes, looking at his muscle, knowing he's the boss of something, or captain of something.
DeleteRegular guys have to have a sense of humour, alphas magically have one. Things they say are funny even when they're not. their comedic performances are not held to any standard.
Rocco was not funny anywhere else in the book. Nia is smitten on the plane. Seeing a sense of humour because she is turned on. He's an asshole, and at this stage she thinks that's funny. Thinks he's being an asshole to amuse her, when he's really just an asshole!
Ooohhh...that's a really interesting thought about Geoff and Krista...I tend to agree with you. They are probably perfect together.
DeletePart of the reason I've been finding it interesting to picture a moment they are together in the presence of Nia...maybe at a gallery or when Geoff and Odie publish their book. Nia will definitely pick up that something happened between them, and likely see the same thing we do.
And I agree, Dino could definitely land Krista for a night, but they would never make a relationship work.
@KT Morrison Yes, you have a point there. There was a guy I once knew who looked like the Pillsbury doughboy, but his confidence was so over-the-top that he never had any problem finding female company. It's almost like tricked them into thinking he was a stud through sheer attrition. I heard him crack a few jokes that had these women in stitches, and all I could think about was how lame they were. At the time, I wrote my assessment off to jealousy, but perhaps I was right after all.
DeleteHere's a weird thought I had yesterday. Is there a Freudian mind allegory going on for Nia's desires represented by the three men in her life in this story?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if I'm saying all that right, but basically I'm asking, could Rocco, Dino, and Geoff each represent id, ego, and Superego?
I doubt it, but it's kind of interesting how well it fits.
Afterall, Rocco is the deep ingrained unconscious desire for rough men, rooted in experiences before it could even be registered as a conscious thought. Her id.
On the opposite end, you have Geoff, her light, her moral guide, perfectly reasonable person who follows the rules and is fair. He's her Superego.
Then you have Dino. The space in between, the mediator of the two feelings. Still connects with that deep seeded thought knocking around in Nia's head, but makes her feel somewhat human (although as KT reminds us, often made her feel less than in their relationship). On the boat, Dino was the guy that said to Rocco "Hey, knock it off," when Rocco overstepped his bounds, but he was also the same guy who told Geoff, "you can't leave this girl out of your sight for one minute." He's her ego.
Freudian mind is all bullshit, but it's poetic and fun at times. KT brings up Freud in the story so maybe she has some subtle influences from his philosophy, maybe not in the book but in life, as we all should!
The Freudian stuff is there. I didn't make it important, but I did consider it.
DeleteJust out of curiosity, in what sense was there 'Freudian stuff?'
DeleteSome very interesting views here. I hadn't thought of the Freudian connection, 2B=2H, but it does hold water. Basically, I think Nia was a confused woman where her sexuality was concerned. On a base level, she craved a strong warrior type of man for both physical pleasure and physical safety, the latter of which translated into emotional safety. However, that feeling of security on both counts was built of lath and plaster. Both Dino and Rocco did lay their hands on her in violence at some point in her past. And there were limits to Rocco's tender loving care. In a way, there was a big, shy kid living inside of Rocco, and he encased this vulnerable creature in the armor of great musculature and feigned indifference.
ReplyDeleteGeoff did show some alpha traits in "Universe." He made the actual break with Nia, and what followed was a major uptick in his fortunes. He even had a girlfriend for a short time. We all want what we can't have, and I don't think Nia was an exception. Few things turn women off more than a needy guy who relies on her love to get up every morning. Sure, a man needs to be loving, but there has to be a powerful undercurrent of an independent spirit and a sense of initiative. Despite his great pain, Geoff displayed both of these qualities in spades. I just hope he can maintain them in our vision of his future with Nia.
I still maintain that a James Bond-type of alpha could take Nia away from Geoff, certainly as long as her childhood issues continue to hold sway in her subconscious. Granting her an elevated state of emotional health in the future, however, I will concede that she could resist the temptations of such a man to remain true to her husband and two children. If anyone has seen "The Bridges of Madison County" with Clint Eastwood and Meryl Streep, you have exactly the kind of situation I could see in the future for Nia and Geoff. Eastwood's character in this film was a departure from his usual two-dimensional portrayal of an implacable tough guy who always had a one-liner in his pocket. His character in "Bridges..." was still all man, but he was intelligent, sensitive, and not afraid to speak his mind. There was a definite alpha quality to this character that Streep's on-screen husband lacked.
A real James Bond alpha (Daniel Craig, please) will take Nia away from Geoff. He will take all your women. Some easier than others but he will take them all. I honestly don't argue that. My proclamation is that they don't exist. Or I should say, exist in very small numbers. The alpha males in real life will cheat on you, threaten you, kill your pets... I like stories with fantasy obviously but I like erotica to be real. Women fall for bad men. That's sexy. I like them to be realistic. That's sexy, to me at least.
DeleteI contend that Geoff has become that Eastwood character by the end of the book.
I also contend that Geoff might be the sexiest character I've created. If you're over thirty, divorced with a kid, you would murder another woman to claim Geoff.
@KT Morrison Yes, indeed. Alphas like Daniel Craig are practically an endangered species. It may interest you to know that one of my female friends actually met him. Daniel put his arm around her shoulder and took a selfie to the two of them with her phone. Even years later, she was gushing about it. The selfie even served as her Facebook cover photo. It may still be there.
DeleteI will admit to bit of subconscious bias against Geoff. When he didn't come to his wife's aid when she was being brutally assaulted, I lost a lot of respect for him. Nia could well have been killed or lost an eye. I'll grant you that I said no one can predict how he or she would behave in an extreme situation. That's the rational part of my mind. Another part condemned Geoff for not protecting his wife. No matter what he did, Odie was going to suffer trauma. His indecisiveness and inaction really turned me off.
Geoff had become a better man by the end of the series. Perhaps all the emotional torment he endured made him more formidable. As the old saying goes, 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.'
Well, there are rumors that Daniel Craig is single again...watch out Geoff!
DeleteWhile I realize the Daniel Craig comments are all in fun, I would comment, also in fun, that it is difficult to steal someone's wife with a .45 caliber hole in your head. Not everyone out here is a weak cuckold type, some are even a bit mean and can surprise a supposed alpha.... Sometimes there are equalizers in the real world.
DeleteYou're going to get the drop on James Bond? Have you seen a James Bond movie? :)
DeletePlus the point still stands—he already took her. You're just talking revenge. You shoot him preemptively, someone else like him is going to make a move while you're in prison!
And this is all theoretical...
Maybe an alpha with more than a few more flaws, but certainly more Nia's speed. Let's say Vito Corleone started a legit business in Toronto, is he a threat to new Geoff?
DeleteBad ass, influential, cares about his family (to an extent that can set a bar of expected behavior), and smart. Assume for the sake of argument he shows signs of a decent roll in the hay, is Nia smitten?
I think since Nia really hasn't changed that much, yeah it doesn't take much to obfuscate another boss/employee relationship in that case.
KT-- What, me shoot someone preemptively? No, if one chooses to do that, it has to be covert. Good thing about how Craig plays the Bond character, he is too much of an alpha to stoop so low as steal another man's wife, unless she is being abused in some way.
DeleteSo, not to worry, although your books would still be available to those of us in Solitary confinement, maybe at a slight discount?
Still looking for an tougher guy who's somehow fallen into a cuckold situation. Could be some real angst there before working things out.
Going A Little Too Far has a cuckold who is a real handful. Former D1 college super-athlete, just cream of the crop when it comes to fighting. He likes to be cuckolded which his wife doesn't mind, loves it actually, but in trade her own kink develops. She likes to have sex with another man, a rising orgasm building while she waits to have her husband pretend to 'catch' her in the act. She is incredibly aroused watching her husband manhandle other men. It's kind of a black comedy but boy did I have good fun with that book. It was at a bad time and it really made me laugh. The couple is really hot to me. They're Christian do-gooders too so I loved their turmoil over what they do...
DeleteKT-- Yeah I remember liking that when I read it a while back. I think that the general idea of an alpha type guy with a past that he needs to work through, and a wife that he tells to go out with another man. The angst he/they would go thru, could really make a good story. Having a really strong, but damaged alpha character that works out his issues, and comes back as a true "real" alpha (Guhrka definition given earlier) could make a great story, kind of a crossover between the hotwife genre and a Romance novel. You are so good creating the edginess, this would be a homerun for you.
DeleteCan't wait to dig in to all your replies. Thanks for the perspective!
ReplyDeleteI should point out, too, that the post has been updated!
DeleteAlready read!
DeleteThanks for added insight KT...having read everything from the beginning, and knowing how it ends, I personally do see how this was the path that made sense. Nia was always going to choose Geoff at the end, any other ending would not have been true to the characters IMO.
ReplyDeleteThank you for updating the blog post KT. As always your insight is appreciated. And the bit at the end? Um, yeah...
ReplyDeleteKT, are you bringing back the status bar anytime soon?
ReplyDeleteYes! Just feeling a little treadmilled. There is a new book coming very soon. A new couple. It will be a standalone but open for many possible sequels...
DeleteAwesome! On a scale from Steve to Matt, how angsty is it?
DeleteJK! Having a little fun, thanks for the update!
Thanks KT. To summarize my thoughts on the ending as it relates to your post. I read some of what Nia did in the last book to mean she developed an improved understanding of her love for Geoff, and from the ending, projected that the future was bright. We got to see their first step towards recovery in the relationship. Even after you first mentioned that I reread the ending and I saw the things that demonstrated that Nia and even Geoff's view of their relationship didn't progress as well as it should (the dialogue, the metaphors, the symbols), I still came away optimistic. Sort of thinking, well their love IS eternal, it just needed scrapes, bruises and some testing to remind them. Nobody's perfect. The temptation is there, but the love was always there too, and it's stronger now. They both are too, I thought. Both of them took their hits but came back from it, bloodied, but still fighting. I took that to mean something more than I perhaps should have, for both characters.
ReplyDeleteI guess your explanation has left me wondering if Nia actually learned something enough that her mindset changed. You mention she is more disciplined now, but yet she is also back to square one. Is it sort of that she is back to the point where she knows she did something terrible to Geoff and her relationship and the underlying issue that caused it could still rear it's head?
I guess the good news is Geoff is more enlightened, but if she feels those desires again ... I guess we don't know. There was a second there at the end where Nia said she wouldn't want to hurt Geoff with the possible bad news about Odie's genetics and she told Odie not to saying anything about almost being hit by a car, so is that her repeating her behavior of hiding things from Geoff because it's too painful for her to admit?
I saw what you were saying about the "happiness" of the ending after your requested reread initially. It is too early in the recovery of the relationship, so we don't know yet what Nia's truly learned. Also, she's obviously hurt Geoff before. I thought a clue to her doing it again could be whatever led Nia and Dino's coupling to happen 8 years ago, but maybe it's just the act itself that's all that needs to be said. Incidentally, I never thought she would ever go back to either of them, but a man like them is still a question. Maybe progress in Nia would be she would need more than who those two are to feel those familiar feelings again. Maybe her "freebie" standards have been raised. That's too simplistic but I'm not even that serious. Daniel Craig doesn't count, because everyone would fall for him.
I never knew what netorare was until you mentioned it in the blog, and I thought, well if it's at all what KT does then let me check it out. Didn't really enjoy any of what I found, not really into hentai or really any of the free 'Western' stories I found as a result. Good to hear your influences though, but yeah I don't see what you do in that vein.
KT-- Read your updated blog, it cleared up some things I had wondered about relative to your perspective, and, or course raised other questions. I accepted long ago that we operate from different paradigms.
ReplyDeleteNot sure about everyone's comments about what an alpha male is, and how he shows his strength (I think most of the above comments are about power, not strength). Being male, I am quite sure my vision of how a true alpha male acts is much different from how some women would perceive him. Many people in this genre seem to perceive alphas as bullies, taking what they want from anyone they consider weaker. It makes a good story, I guess, but when I consider another man an alpha type it is because of his strength and depth of character. From other men's comments above, I seem to have a different opinion from most, and I am okay and even comfortable with that.
I have never seen an actual study on what different people would describe as the characteristics of an alpha male. I suspect the distribution of answers would show a high variance. Just the nerd in me, I guess, but I never was good at staying with the crowd.
I always take alpha to mean... how to put this... the alpha, male or female, has a force of personality, a conviction, a will, a confidence that gives them the strength to dominate those with a lower will or confidence. It isn't necessarily power, though they can radiate a sense of it. It isn't about strength, though alphas among wild animals tend to be stronger. When I talk about Geoff's inner alpha I'm referring to his confidence and sense of being, along with his personality. KT pointed out his fantastic bod, which of course you think would help, but it was never something that helped or hurt Geoff's confidence, at least I don't recall reading such.
DeleteRocco's alpha is a different beast entirely. He's dominant. He's powerful. He's also shallow. Once you get past his bluster, like Dino does, he breaks or flees. As such his infatuations are childlike and primitive, in my mind.
That's how I interpret it anyway...
ToBe- on Nia not wanting Odie to tell Geoff about the near accident...I remember a KT post from last week where she explained Nia didn't want her daughter to tell him in that moment because she wanted Geoff to be calm for when she revealed the DNA tests. I don't think she wanted Odie to hide that from him forever, just for the day. I'd tell you where it is, but I have no idea...it was pretty early on after the story.
ReplyDeleteGuhrka - I think everyone's definition of an "alpha male" is probably different. A lot think of it at that base, primal level of a guy who just takes what he wants. But I think there's also room to intepret it like you do...I would personally subscribe to the view there are many different types.
JL - I remember what she said, she never said anything about when she would tell Geoff about Odie's near accident. Here's that part of the post, it didn't take me too long to find thankfully:
Delete"Her desire at that point is to put that [DNA test results] gift in his hand. She wants a nice moment, in the hope that he might forgive her. She feels like talking about the almost accident would get blood pressures high, his voice high and tense. She wants a nice calm Geoff, undistracted. Her thought at that moment are that she will in a moment change his life for the better..."
Obviously there's a matter of the book ending that would cause that problem, but just listen to what you're saying, "she wanted Geoff to be calm" I'm obviously extrapolating here, but it sounds like another example of Nia trying to avoid hurting Geoff with the truth. It's not as extreme of hurt and maybe she tells Geoff the next day, but it's an example that things haven't changed.
If that example doesn't please you then what about the thought I mention about her not wanting to tell Geoff if the results came back that their DNA didn't match? This is what Nia says about it "If Odele was Dino's she would swallow it. Keep it deep inside." Or more to the point, "Greatest gift she could give Geoff was the truth. If it was good. She'd never tell him if it was bad."
This cements the proof to me that Nia is still at square one, the ending is less ambiguous on where Nia is as a character with KT's blog post. I know Edwin kind of agrees or agreed with that take on Nia.
I do, for the most part. But I get why Nia doesn't want to freak Geoff out with that particular news.
DeleteIt should be noted, this aware one is different from the first... All of Nia's cards, indescretions, flaws, everything Geoff didn't know, all of it is on the table. Geoff is going in hurt, yes, but not as blind as he was before.
When Nia asks Odie not to tell Geoff, she says to "tell him tomorrow." That's where I get the sense its not something she's looking to hide from him forever. It's just in that moment she wants him calm.
DeletePersonally, I don't read too much into her not telling him about the accident right away. His knowledge of that is not something that will fundamentally alter his life; its just a scary thing that he can pretty quickly move on from relieved they're OK.
Its not the same as keeping a secret like maybe Odie isn't his. That secret upended all their lives, perhaps forever.
In regards to the DNA, Geoff told her on the boat he couldn't handle knowing for sure that Odie isn't his. He may now be in a position where he can handle that, but Nia wouldn't know for sure.
DeleteI can see how she wouldn't want to tell him and add to his pain, and I'm guessing she probably doesn't try to get back together with him if the news turned out bad.
That is my guess as well JL.
Delete@KT Morrison Thank you for the clarification, KT. I did reread "Universe" and am willing to admit that my remarks were hyperbolic. 'Contrived' is not a fair representation of the ending, and Nia didn't do an about-face. At the time, my perception was that she turned in a direction that was not in keeping with her character. At the back of my mind was the suspicion that she had endured some kind of childhood trauma that needed to be resolved before her character could possess the ability to engage in adult love. (This dovetails with 2B=2H's remarks about 'square one.') But that was my misapprehension. The ending didn't unfurl like I expected it to, but this series had much more than a readership of one. I was giving my two cents, but perhaps I threw it when I should have just slid it across the counter.
ReplyDeleteThere are a couple of things I'd like to clarify. My vision of a "true" alpha male is not Rocco; not even Dino in his present incarnation. I won't repeat what I've already explained, but Clint Eastwood's character in "Bridges of Madison County" is the kind of alpha male that makes the best partner.
As for the netorare genre, perhaps I should have qualified my use of that term. I was not referring to the hard-core, nihilistic variety that was spawned in Japan, though it was on me to make that clear since "netorare" is a Japanese word. The type I'm attracted to is in no way misogynistic. It's about two terribly flawed people who love each other and lose what could have been. It's worth repeating that I felt Nia had a right to at least take a break from Geoff after he failed to protect her from Maria's attack. In LHW-1, I said more than once that Pete didn't deserve to get Jess back. Of course, when the chips were down, he stepped up. Tyler's behavior was cowardly and irresponsible.
One of life's most lamentable tragedies is "It might have been." There are many of us who have learned critical life lessons when it's too late. Of course, there are reams of advice, sayings, and practical examples that teach us not to live in the past. But sometimes, there's a hole in your life large enough that the wound remains open, if not septic. Fiction that unpacks those feelings and experiences is valuable and does not get the exposure that it should, IMHO.
I'm glad I read LHW-2. It was an emotional journey of pleasure, pain, growth, and redemption. I imagine it was quite a trial to write, not only due to the labor of creating but also because these characters had become all but flesh and blood. Thank you for sharing them with us.
Talking about the ending of the book has given me my own revelation. So I thank you for the honest opinions. I don’t think you’re wrong. I realized, through discourse here, that I may have missed the better ending. Maybe I was afraid to do something. I like that I’ve been challenged.
DeleteIn talking in the comments here on the blog I’ve been able to explore my own themes a bit more. I write in a bubble. I don’t share with anyone, I don’t look for opinions, I don’t use beta-readers, proofers, nor editors. But coming here has enlightened my own viewpoint on the book.
I’ve been bummed and quiet for a few days because I realize I missed the ending that demonstrated better all the things I’ve iterated here in the comments.
Now, it seems like you might be apologizing for something here, I hope you’re not. You didn’t like the ending and you kindly and politely told me. I don’t mind that at all. I think you can imagine after writing an emotional 300,000 word book that in the few days following I might be a little emotional myself, and defensive. But I took no offense from anything you posted. It was another poster who called it haphazard and poorly-plotted and, two days after I wrote it, I found it hurtful. I hate to over-state this but I really poured a lot into what amounts to a dumb erotica book. Like, life-ruining effort, neglect everything else effort, make yourself cry effort.
I’m way deep these days into the next series and my new characters are taking life. Geoff and Nia and Odele are becoming less familiar. <<Gosh, it hurts to say that! But it’s true. Now I’m in a more receptive mind. I see I might have been swayed by my love for the characters and missed something. I’m not sure, but I might have…
Alpha males: Everyone has their own opinion. It’s a hard thing to define. On a biological level I would equate it to testosterone levels. Higher testosterone males can physically lower other males testosterone with their presence. Or so I’ve read. I feel like someone you consider an alpha male in one situation would not be when they are in the presence of a male in a higher order. Like in reality, a National Geographic photographer, while confident and masculine in the kitchen of a housewife in Madison County, would genuflect before a six-five three-fifty pound animal like Rocco. Masculinity and alpha-ness are situational to me.
Netorare: Yes, I believe much more in your interpretation of the word. It is about loss and the potential of loss. It’s such a beautiful sounding word. It sounds romantic. And sometimes love and romance are about loss too.
KT- I think its a natural thing to think about "the road not taken" after you've had some time and step away from the book. Also, its a way to keep those characters fresh in your mind, and that's not a bad thing either.
DeleteBut I wouldn't spend all that much time beating yourself up over it. Like I said, I think its a natural thought; who's to say if you wrote a different ending that you wouldn't be having those same thoughts.
Also, I think sometimes constructive criticism, like the sort PS gave, probably sticks with us and makes us think more than universally positive comments (or the name calling type negative comments). It challenges you to think from their perspective and see if you agree with them. That's a good thing, so I'm glad we have this forum to civilly throw ideas out without any name calling.
PS - I hope you didn't take offense by my critique of your opinion either. I think we understand each other's wants out of these stories, but I may have been a little over eager to say something in reply. I didn't want to validate the thought that you were painting a target on yourself with your post, but I've been on here for a while, invested a lot of my time scouring all our thoughts enough to provide some views on it, I think. I reposted my reply here at the top because it was (I believe) the last one in your thread before the new blog, I see more came in though. Looking back immediately at it though makes it look like I was calling you out.
DeleteTo your point about Nia's relationship instability. I have been hoping for some more commentary from KT, because I feel like it makes a lot of sense, given her ability to throw herself into the affections of other men so completely. Is Nia independent or not? I see her having dependency issues based on how she acts in the last two books and, throughout (in part). It makes that thought of her independence questionable.
I could be convinced (as I had been up to this point) that her ability to feel so strongly with each of these men is because this situation was so incredibly unique. Geoff is the unconditional lover, great man, passionate and decent enough in bed, Dino is the old flame who showed great passion for her as well and was a dynamo in the sack, former love of her life, and then Rocco, who is her personal fantasy incarnate. How does anyone react in this situation with three dream men (albeit different dreams)? Can the human mind even comprehend how it should behave in this moment? One might just end up looking erratic and crazy in this situation.
One thing to JL and Edwin- I couldn't believe how many times it took me to reread the paragraph about "Nia rolling those bones for a natural" regarding her second baby's parentage for me to finally realize that Nia didn't get the courage to find out about her current baby's father, until after she knew Odie was Geoff's daughter. Have I been reading that wrong this whole time?
That is a critical piece. I had been operating under the assumption that Nia planned (I thought consciously, but JL and KT had me realizing it was unconscious) to have Geoff's baby again, not because she wanted to coerce him into coming back to her, but because she just wanted to be with him so bad that she wanted to have another child with him. That made me think, there is no way she doesn't try to go back to Geoff, even if she finds out that Odie wasn't his. What you said makes sense though given how it played out. Does she have the confidence to put her fears aside and try to make things right with Geoff if she finds out Odie isn't Geoff's and thus ignores the second child's DNA test? I still think she does find the courage, but given this new interpretation of that paragraph, it has me thinking on it.
It's almost like Nia got away with feeling like the hero in the DNA situation, but it was (essentially) a stroke of good luck that led her to plunge back into trying to get Geoff's good graces back. An artificial confidence, that may have made her too eager to try to make things right with Geoff before she was truly ready.
Geoff is of course at fault for wanting her back so easily, she was content on leaving after giving him the good news.
My thoughts on netorare - I liked the definition too which is why I looked for the different stories I mentioned, but when I kept seeing the stuff that kept popping up as the best stories on it, I thought it didn't work. What PS describes, if they are at all like KT's stories, I can get behind!
ToBe - I agree that I think the knowledge of Geoff being Odie's biological father is what gives Nia the strength to make the leap to win Geoff back. But I think it was something she always wanted, she was just afraid it was something she could never fix. I don't think that news is what made her eager to want to be with Geoff, I think she was always eager for that.
DeleteAs to what she does if it turns out to be bad news, I think its open to interpretation as I can see cases to be made either way. Maybe she still has the strength to push on in her fight for Geoff, or maybe it crushes her to the point she thinks its hopeless and best to let him go.
Also, as to Nia's motivations on that fateful day at the old house, I go back and forth a lot. I still don't think she consciously did all that to get pregnant. I still think it was a subconscious thing, kind of how KT described it; her body realizing the opportunity would be there.
DeleteBut I also think Jenny hits on something, though I think she gets Nia's motivations wrong. I do think Nia's actions were impacted by the knowledge she got from her daughter that Geoff had moved in with Jenny. I do wonder if a part of her goes to that house determined to be with Geoff because she knows it will ruin his new relationship.
I don't think she does it consciously either, or because she hates Geoff and wants him to be miserable. Maybe she sees her chance slipping by, that Geoff may be finally moving on from her, and she needs to do something to bring him back to her. I do think some of that was in play as well.
ToBe - "One thing to JL and Edwin- I couldn't believe how many times it took me to reread the paragraph about "Nia rolling those bones for a natural" regarding her second baby's parentage for me to finally realize that Nia didn't get the courage to find out about her current baby's father, until after she knew Odie was Geoff's daughter. Have I been reading that wrong this whole time?"
ReplyDeleteAt first I wasn't sure. I had to reread the section to make sure I read it right. For me it meant that she didn't dare to hope until she read the Odie results. But then after KTs remarks and rereading the scene with Nia and Rocco in the apartment it turned from hope to validation. Not for Nia but for Geoff. It did nothing to alleviate some of my concerns for Nia, but it proved to me that she was... I don't know...rooting for him? Something like that. But yeah I'd always read it like you say. That she didn't dare believe it was possible until she was certain of Odie.
Thank you, KT, for clearing the air. I was offering an apology, though it did not entail the reversal of my position. My contrition was based upon my poor choice of words; to wit, "contrived." I think the old saying, "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is nonsense. Words can be weapons of mass destruction, and we should never underestimate the potential power of what we say to other people.
ReplyDelete2B=2H, thanks for weighing in as well. I took no offense at any of your remarks. In fact, I find your thorough analyses and willingness to be frank rather refreshing. It's not a quality I encounter in other people very often.
At the end of the day, this was an emotionally-loaded experience for everyone, though KT bore the brunt of it. It's hard not to bring one's own fears, insecurities, and regrets into the reading of a good story. I want to emphasize, KT, that you do not write 'dumb erotica books.' If there were no substance in what you wrote, then you wouldn't have enough fan comments by now to fill a shelf in a public library. What you do matters, perhaps more than you know. Please hang in there.
Thank you PS.
DeleteI like to think I'm not sensitive but after a year of writing emotional books that has changed! Maybe it's for the better, I don't know, ha ha...
And, although I posted that I had seen a better ending, I re-read Universe and I'm undaunted. That was the way I wanted to end it! Maybe, ask me a year from now...
And thank you for saying my dumb erotica books have substance, ha ha. I said it tongue and cheek, meaning I put a lot of effort and care into a book that a very narrow audience is interested in. But I happen to like this audience and these books! This is what I want to write. I'm very glad to have found a group of readers who care enough to post here.
So I see the update bar is back and a new story is almost here. "Sharing Maggie" sounds like a potential LHW type story, but we'll see. Can't wait to find out.
ReplyDeleteIt's ba-ack. And I think I have some Cayman news even though its not represented on the progress bars.
DeleteA new series starts next week. I could have branded it LHW but I'm not sure if I will. That comes with a lot of expectation. It's safe to consider it an LHW, I'm just not sure if I want it on the cover.
Part of me was looking forward to the less angst filled story you had mentioned. But who am I kidding, I love the angst, bring it on! It's only been two weeks and I'm already in withdrawal.
DeleteCayman news... You just knew I couldn't resist rising to that bait. Hope you're really getting serious about it, but all things happen in their own time.
DeleteEnough transcendental crap for now. Nice to hear that KT is back!!!
Haha, YES!!
ReplyDeleteHave you no decency madam?! You never stop. For over a year now you have been putting emotionally consuming, complete characters at an insane pace. I think you must live off of people's will. Word counts must be your caffeine.
Every time I think you reach a good stopping point, I think okay ... maybe NOW she's going to take a nice breather. It's well deserved! The status bar is gone, good for her.
Then all of a sudden ... lol.
Your new marketing slogan-
KT Morrison -
Maintaining your dependency one update at a time!
And angst FTW!
That slogan needs work, but you get my point.
DeleteKind of wish I didn't know what you had cooking for next week because of the anticipation. That may or may not be related to the crush I'm developing on the woman in your blog header.
Lol. I know exactly what you mean...
Delete